Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

'You dont know which ethnicity I am referring to. Polish kids want to learn, as do those from Eastern Europe such as Ukraine and Russia (Poland is not E.Europe strictly speaking). In those countries children do not muck around in class, and teachers are taken very seriously by parents'.

A quote from Britt. She makes it clear here which kids she believes want to learn. She omitts a number of other ethnicities, I'm guessing the ones she thnks don't want to learn. So it wasn't just about disruptiveness clearly, Britt thinks there is an ethnic group that doesn't want to learn. Although stating a particular ethnic group are disruptive is toxic too. Quite why a distinction that was never made makes you 'scream' Lumela, rather than the toxic prejudice and stereotyping implicit, I have no idea.

That's right, Twisted - I do exactly that.
Britt made a conditional comment ('apparently') based on a friend's anecdote. I wouldn't necessarily have done the same, but she's allowed to say it, you know.

And like a lot of posters on this thread I have it up to the back teeth with emily's total inability to offer any solutions, to accept the facts, to read links provided. She misrepresented Britt. She doesn't answer questions put to do, or ever say, 'Oh, yuh' when she's shown evidence that she was mistaken.

What sort of solutions do you think you'll get with Britt Lumela, that attaches negative characteristics to a particular ethnic group? Why do I make you so cross and that Third Reich mentality doesn't?

She didn't just make a conditional comment, she added to it, by asserting only some ethnic immigrant groups of kids want to learn.

'She's allowed to say it, you know.' Oh dear.

I haven't misrepresented anything at all. However, the statement that a certain ethnic group is disruptive is repellent enough. You have a go at me for pointing that out instead of the person saying it and you claim you're not xenophobic?

'She's allowed to say it, you know.' Oh dear.
Yes, she is allowed to say it, because - here's the rub - we're not in the Third Reich or the Soviet Union, whatever you think of Britt's 'mentality'.

She didn't 'assert': at the most, she implied. Get yourself a dictionary.

I can't clarify what Britt meant, because I'm not Britt, but yes, she IS allowed to say it. She really is. You've had evidence of where I draw my free speech dividing line, and clearly I am, in that regard, more open-minded than you are. You're allowed to make all sorts of inane inaccurate statements and accuse people of xenophobia and being neo-Nazis and bigots and all the rest of it. You have come out with a lot of nonsense over the course of these threads, and you're allowed to say it.

This is interesting too:
hrlr.oxfordjournals.org/content/11/4/707.abstract
Toward an Anti-Stereotyping Approach for the European Court of Human Rights

The central tenet of this article is that stereotypes are both cause and manifestation of the structural disadvantage and discrimination of certain groups of people. Focusing on the gender case law of the European Court of Human Rights, this article explores what conception of equality the Court should embrace to adequately address the harmfulness of stereotypes. Since stereotypes are often the mechanisms that underlie discrimination, this article advances an anti-stereotyping approach that the Court could employ in its rulings.

Mass migration from MENA countries presents a convergence of two 'others' namely 'females' and 'ethnic men'. Both groups have historically been wronged and are still wronged in various circumstances. European females have fought for and are still fighting for equality, whilst also raising children, holding down jobs and ensuring the world goes round. This is due to feminism. Feminism did not manage to change MENA societies, a fact which is reflected in the lack of equality between the sexes in these regions. These hostile attitudes towards women are being imported to Europe en masse at this point in time.

I believe large chunks of British and European society are still incredibly sexist though, an ugly fact covered by a thin veil of political correctness and the fear of being sued in the workplace. Men in most countries want to dominate women. Men from Scandinavian countries are, by and large, the least sexist of them all and the laws in Sweden etc. protect women in the workplace incredibly. Almost all mothers in Sweden work, the concept of staying at home is alien to many. I digress. Going back to the two groups of 'others' converging (women & ethnic minorities), there will naturally be friction and a battle to establish whose rights and interests will come out strongest.

If we are lucky, all women will come out better after the scandals of sex mobbing and censorship of said sex mobbing because feminism will seem relevant again. Not just the Guardian reading, intellectual feminism but grass root, authentic feminism, which stems from real experiences and the real possibility of loosing our rights to live freely.

Godwin's Law... ding ding ding!

Oh, she only implied? Sounding a lot like an apologist for some very nasty views, Lumela.

When someone states that a particular ethnic group are disruptive and don't want to learn, the xenopobia and bigotry is CLEAR. Pointing that out rather than avoiding it is not inane.

While you've fucked off maybe you could spend some time considering why you are so keenly defending bigots.

She made a comment about what her friend has experienced, that's it. I didn't take it as implying that a whole ethnic group as disruptive and don't want to learn. No one else did either as far as I can see. It's only you who yet again has wilfully misinterpreted someone's post. Britt is your latest target, of many that you have had throughout all these threads, so you won't leave it alone despite it being explained to you numerous times.

sexism v bigotry.
by an large sexism is commonplace in most societies and deeply ingrained in men of all political spectra across the world.

Bigotry, arguably is rarer, and definitely less socially acceptable and accepted in Britain.
In my experience there is less social cringing when somebody tells a sexist joke and women often laugh along to keep peace and show they have a sense of humour. Racist jokes are much less socially accepted in comparison are are usually vehemently challenged. Why is sexism not challenged in the same way?

emily I said it before on this or another thread ...you don't get solutions by being too afraid to allow some degree of generalisation.
Look at teen knife crime - if you looked at the data (at one point at least) most knife related crime/murder involved young black men. Often gang related.
Through a fear of being labelled xenophobic or bigoted you can educate ALL teens on the dangers and consequences of carrying a knife and knife crime in general...which is not a bad thing...
but if you also acknowledge the data and ask why is that the case? What draws young black men into gangs? What expectations do they have in life? What are the expectations of them? How can we improve/change things? Look at their role models etc etc. You are then tackling the problem more effectively. And it doesn't mean you are saying ALL young black men are knife wielding members of gangs.
So a general observation that one group of children from a similar background tend to be disruptive in a class can be constructive. Is that true in more than one setting? If it is you can look at why that is the case and then make specific targeted actions to improve their (and the rest of the class) education. But not if you refuse to acknowledge the problem in the first place.

I will remain unconvinced that your 'concern' over Cologne is not xenophobia dressed up as unease over women's rights

I genuinely couldn't care less about your 'convictions.'

You've had nearly nine full threads to add anything constructive to this debate but you've chosen instead to nitpick and derail and make silly racist generalisations and generally clutter the place up with back-of-the-classroom cliched Year 10 yapping.

A therapist might be helpful in unpicking why you crave non-stop negative attention from strangers on the Internet.

Meanwhile, I will continue to read out your more risible comments for general amusement.

My family and other animals salute you.

These type of mass sex attacks are a symptom of a type of Fascism. Lots of ideologies, doctrines and religions have Fascistic elements. The type of attitude giving rise to mob/mass behaviour towards women comes a type of Fascism.

Lots of far right and Fascist groups in Europe at the moment. Quite a lot of radicalisation going on all round. There is cultural and religious radicalisation giving rise to Fascistic behaviour. There are also groups of people being radicalised as a result of the migration issue. Ironically, they would appear have a lot in common in behaviour. Violent, thinking they are above the law and both have specific groups of people as targets in their mass behaviour. Migrants and Women.

Clumsily put together, but lets call a Fascist a Fascist.

Havent posted for a while but due to the classism shown by Deo........IM OUT

Good luck everyone!

No, it isn't it Cellar. She also stated some kids from ethnic groups don't want to learn. Defending these toxic beliefs shows your true intentions. Making out Britt to be a victim when I question these vile views is really bizarre.

Unlucky, this kind of shite is in no way constructive.

Mave, bigotry is not rare.

January, Britt can make racist jokes and claim one ethnic group doesn't want to learn and is disruptive and I am racist??? That makes me feel sick.

Saying I might need a therapist for disagreeing with this nasty, toxic, outdated, dangerous and vile rhetoric is really low. Saying I crave non stop negative attention is really horrible. I really don't.I just feel so angry at the views expressed here and can't not say anything to challenge them. If that makes me unstable in some way, I'll take it.

emilybohemia I saw this and thought of you (and it's not from The Sun, so you're ok): ^They are a stalking ground for the sanctimonious, self righteous who love to second guess, to leap to conclusions and be offended - worse, to be offended on behalf of others that they do not even know.

It doesn't matter whether they think they're defending women, men, Muslims, transgender; their ghastliness is absolutely the same. They make sensible people want to take an absolutely opposite point of view.

They shriek their secularism in such a way as to make you want to become an evangelical Christian. ^
It fits you SO perfectly Emily, it could have been written for you! Now, do I have to tell you where this was published too?

Funny how you seem to attract "vile, toxic, racist, bigoted, sick " people Emily. They're pretty much on every thread you're on, aren't they? Does it happen to you much Irl too? Or is it just when you're being a keyboard warrior?

There are far worse things to be Ohfor. If you find objecting to xenophobia and spurious generalisations 'ghastly', that says far more about you than me.

Do you find Akala 'ghastly'?

That is an interesting description, Ohfor. Vile, toxic, racist (based on sex of target), bigoted, sick. That would somewhat describe the mindset of the people who carried out the mass/mob sex attacks against women.

Can't be arsed to look at that Emily. I'll just reiterate that your brand of secularism makes the most broad minded, even handed person, feel xenophobic when trying to converse with you. You really are counter productive!

I just feel so angry at the views expressed here and can't not say anything to challenge them.

Of course you can. Have a long walk. Look at nature. Get some perspective.

If that makes me unstable in some way, I'll take it.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

CS Lewis

Emily, I'm sorry you are being treated like this.

It is amazing how when you point out some the things being said on here and hold a light to them, you get told your are derailing and nitpicking.

And there are very vocal calls to ignore you!

You (and a small number of us) are a minority voice on here. But don't think that you are not having an impact.

The response to the petition is interesting given that this is a site comprised of many thousands of mainly women, all of whom I imagine, like us, care about the safety of women- including themselves, their mothers, sisters and daughters. I don't think it is just us who feel deeply uneasy with much of what is being said here, and that is reflected in the very poor response.

Sadly there is a growing movement, way beyond this thread, to scapegoat and dehumanise migrants and refugees. I think it comes from fear at base. I don't know if you have seen any of the press about the serious violent recent attacks on the people in the calais camp? The sad thing is that the people who carried out the attacks, probably thought they were doing a good thing. And probably think that the migrants/ refugees/ humans looking for something that might resemble a life, are posing a serious threat to them and their own societies/ way of life. They don't see vulnerability, they see danger.

The comments on here that you are shining a light to, do contribute to more fear, dehumanisation and prejudice being felt and spread.

I like Akala very much and find it deeply offensive that Emily has used him to justify her rhetoric. As Lumela stated Britt has made it clear her post was an anecdote, not a statement of fact.

I personally have been careful to qualify anything I have said to be my experience rather than a generalisation, mostly because Emily seems to leap on anything anybody says. I for one have found her a bit of a dead end as she doesn't really offer any constructive, practical ideas, just lying in wait for someone to say something that can be picked on.

I do care about the safety of women, but I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend that some things don't exist simply because I don't want it to be so. Horrible attitudes exist all around, I am often confronted by it, in the street, in daily life. I can pretend that it's not so, but that doesn't make it not real. I'm afraid pretending that some men are not mysogynistic because various factors in their formative environment have led them to think women are second class is not seeing the world as it really is. I could pretend the regime in North Korea is all lovely, but it's not, but equally I wouldn't be stating all North Koreans are evil. I have striven for balanced viewpoints and many of the other ladies on here have too. Emily so far has not. So to please Emily I'll just be grabbing me Skrewdriver albums cos that's clearly what she thinks of me, so damned if you do, damned if you don't!

Got the cat to get spayed today so won't be checking in for more nonsense from Emily, thoroughly put off!

(For the record I do not and have never possessed Skrewdriver albums)

Have you read about how the residents of Calais feel and what they have to put up with Twisted? There is no excuse for the attacks but they are inevitable when residents feel that they are basically under siege and aren't receiving any help. The authorities have a lot to answer for that they have let the situation there deteriorate so far.

Why do you think that europe should accept all and any person that walks through its borders, even though most are not refugees in the true sense of the word? They are economic migrants and even the commissioner of the EU admits as much. Who is going to pay for them? There isn't a bottomless money pit available.

Genuine refugees as well as Europeans are suffering as a result of this madness.

Ive spoken to some incredible people who have lived in calais all their lives, but have been devoting their time for many years, trying to help feed, clothe and protect the people existing and dying in the camp. One is a tough and compassionate, small older woman. She certainly does not feel they are under siege, she sees the actual appalling neglect and suffering that goes on in the camp.
Some of the calais residents probably do really feel under siege. That doesn't mean that they are.

Another day another chance!

Emily (and her helper) yet again running rings around everyone attempting to guilt and shut down debate and then turn it around and play the injured one. It's inflammatory stuff but it's a strategy. It doesn't work.

There's a phrase - 'don't give em pie'.