Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

If everyone stopped responding to Emily , she might get fed up and bugger off please . Engaging with her drivel just derails the thread and we won't make any progress about this subject.

Britt I was replying to Misti, who mentioned the 500,000 Syrians in Saudi but Didn't mention their being guest workers.

Emily, demanding things be taken from the existing population and given to you is not participating in society, it is taking from it.

Similarly, how can they participate in the new society they have entered when they don't speak the language? 22% of female Muslim immigrants don't and often cite the fact that their male relatives will not allow it as they believe it will grant them too much "freedom". Those ideas are not compatible with western society are they?

Britt and Cellardoor1 have already answered your question to me Emily. No need for me to add anything.

Britt,it is funny that people refusing to scapegoat many based on the actions of a few names you think you're in a parallel universe.

Immigrants do learn English, they contribute to the economy and help it grow, do not committ violent crime more than anyone else, lower crime in the areas they live in, do not drain education and public services.

In your universe, myths that suggest these things are untrue may flourish, but in the real world they are factual inaccuracies.

Many immigrants choose not to come to the UK at all. Britain is not full.

'there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently' I taught in the UK. I never noticed this. I also worked in classes with Polish kids newly arrived. They settled in fine and spoke English very quickly. I find your remark about disruptive migrant boys just sad sad sad and so reflective of the insidious attitudes so many youngsters have to contend with.

You dont know which ethnicity I am referring to. Polish kids want to learn, as do those from Eastern Europe such as Ukraine and Russia (Poland is not E.Europe strictly speaking). In those countries children do not muck around in class, and teachers are taken very seriously by parents.

Immigrants do learn English, they contribute to the economy

That's fine, but until they are allowed to work & contribute to society and pay for services they receive, they cannot demand more than a British born person, in fact they cannot even expect the same because they have paid not a penny. You must remember - no government has its own money; all the money that govt holds is from the taxpayers.

Incidently, there is nothing in the German news regarding these stats.

Earlier figures were reported in Die Welt on 10 Feb:

Im Bezug auf die Nationalität der Beschuldigten teilte die Kölner Staatsanwaltschaft mit, dass es sich um 25 Algerier, 21 Marokkaner, drei Tunesier, drei Deutsche, zwei Syrer und jeweils einen Iraker, Libyer, Iraner und Montenegriner handelt. Unter den Beschuldigten befinden sich auch Minderjährige und Heranwachsende sowie Asylbewerber und illegal eingereiste Personen. Einige Beschuldigte seien bereits polizeibekannt.

The more recent figures were reported in the Berliner Morgenpost on 15 Feb:

Die Staatsanwaltschaft hat derweil eine Liste der Nationalitäten der 73 Beschuldigten erstellt. Aus dieser ergibt sich, dass ein Großteil der Männer aus nordafrikanischen Ländern stammt. 30 Marokkaner, 27 Algerier und drei Tunesier seien unter den Beschuldigten, außerdem ein Libyer, ein Iraner, vier Iraker, ein Montenegriner, drei Syrer sowie drei Deutsche.

And while looking for that information, I found this:

Germany Labor Minister Andrea Nahles said on Wednesday that her national ministry requires an additional 450 million euros to integrate refugees. Social Democrat Nahles said these funds would be used to create 100,000 jobs for refugees, though she added that further means would be required to contribute to projects like training and education. Nahles noted that the ministry's budget could not accommodate major integration projects in its current form without weighing on other services, which could prove challenging after more than 1 million migrants applied for asylum in the country in 2015. "We cannot take away from the long-term unemployment funds. Otherwise, it creates predatory competition, stoking fears, instead of reducing them," Nahles said.

That's to create 100,000 jobs: but they have more than 1 million applicants for asylum.

We really do need to add the disclaimer "not all immigrants" to any statement we make around you Emily, don't we?

The fact is, there is a significant minority of immigrants who cannot speak English and therefore are unable to contribute anything to the society they live in. According to the 2011 census, there are 1 million households with no English at all yet according to you, it is racist to point this out. Do you agree that the idea of blocking the "empowerment" of women by denying them the chance to learn English has no place in western society?

Britt, I can understand a PhD from a different country not being viewed as exactly the same in medicine, but I can assure you that in most other areas of academia a PhD is a PhD, especially if the department's REF score or equivalent is high. The university I work at is partnered with Islamic University of Gaza and we exchange lecturers in engineering. This is especially common in the humanities (my own PhD is in French).

I won't tell you for whom I worked - but I will tell you that I was "strong-armed" in to hiring people with PhDs which weren't worth the paper they were printed on the street corner on! It was an open secret that qualifications could be "bought".

Makes me feel quite fluffy inside to learn that only the highly educated, highly literate enter Europe. There was me knowing thinking so many immigrants were illiterate in their own languages...

You're seriously saying 'a certain ethnicity' don't want to learn. Nothing like racial stereotyping is there Britt? I've worked with many ethnicities. None of them stood out as difficult or not wanting to learn. Kids disengage from learning for many reasons.

Britt clealy doesn't come with a 'not all immigrants' disclaimer.

They don't demand more and as refugees they do deserve a place to live and assistance. It speaks volumes that you infer they deserve less. Refugees and asylum seekers deserve help regardless of what they have 'paid into the system.'

There isn't a significant number that don't speak English. There is a small minority.

Until I see people on here challenge Britt's assertions, like a particular ethnic group not wanting to learn, I will remain unconvinced that your 'concern' over Cologne is not xenophobia dressed up as unease over women's rights.

www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/creating-safe-public-spaces

Creating Safe Public Spaces
Sexual harassment and other forms of sexual violence in public spaces are an everyday occurrence for women and girls around the world—in urban and rural areas, in developed and developing countries."

Women and girls experience and fear various types of sexual violence in public spaces, from sexual harassment to sexual assault including rape and femicide. It happens on streets, public transport and parks, in and around schools and workplaces, in public sanitation facilities and water and food distribution sites, or in their own neighbourhoods.
This reality reduces women’s and girls’ freedom of movement. It reduces their ability to participate in school, work and in public life. It limits their access to essential services, and enjoyment of cultural and recreational opportunities. It also negatively impacts their health and well-being.
Although violence in the private domain is now widely recognized as a human rights violation, violence against women and girls, especially sexual harassment in public spaces, remains a largely neglected issue, with few laws or policies in place to prevent and address it."

"UN Women’s Safe Cities Global Initiative includes two main flagship programmes. In 2010, with UN-Habitat and 50 other global and local partners, we launched “Safe Cities Free of Violence against Women and Girls” in Quito, Ecuador; Cairo, Egypt; New Delhi, India; Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea; and Kigali, Rwanda. It is the first-ever global comparative programme that develops, implements, and evaluates tools, policies and comprehensive approaches on the prevention of, and response to, sexual harassment and other forms of sexual violence against women and girls across different settings"

Incidentally, i stumbled across this interesting and maybe relevant for this thread program whilst mindlessly killing time browsing on the -naff naff-- Swarovski website where they are selling's this

www.swarovski.com/Web_GB/en/5233817/product/UN_Bracelet,_Atelier_Swarovski.html

UN Bracelet, Atelier Swarovski. The bracelet sounds terribly naff but the initiative seems to tie in with the topic of this thread.

My God, Emily, what a complex you have! You consistently bundle all of us into one homogenous group, picking apart our arguments like the worst kind of school teacher. Noone gives you that right, so don't assume it. You must be a joy to work/socialize with, ever on the attack against everybody. Or do you only dare do this online??

There s a fact sheet too
www2.unwomen.org/~/media/headquarters/attachments/sections/library/publications/2014/un%20women%20safe%20cities%20brief-us-web.pdf?v=1&d=20151125T180714

An extract from the UN fact sheet

In 1995, the Beijing Platform for Action distinguished ending violence against women as one of the 12 critical areas to achieve gender equality. In 2013, the United Nations Commission for the Status of Women (CSW57) identified various forms of sexual violence against women and girls (SVAWG) in public spaces as a distinct area of concern, and called on governments to prevent it. The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development has set “the elimination of all forms of violence against all women and girls in public and private spheres” as one of its specific goals (Target 5.2).

Participating cities commit to:

1. Develop and effectively implement comprehensive laws and policies to prevent and respond to sexual violence

in public spaces. Through capacity building, awareness raising, community mobilization and other strategies, au- thorities, women’s grassroots and community partners are equipped to advocate, develop, and monitor the effective implementation of law and policies, and to make sure that accompanying resources are in place to support this action.

Participating cities: Cairo, New Delhi, Kigali, Port Moresby, Quito, Cape Town, Mexico City, Rabat, Marrakech, Quezon City, Metro Manila, Medellin, Dushanbe, Rio de Janeiro, Tegucigalpa, Dublin, Winnipeg ( jointly with the Province of Manitoba in Canada), Reykjavik, Sakai, New York, and Brussels.

I am surprised London, Paris, Berlin and other European cities are not participating . Would that be due to ignorant arrogance by local stakeholders?

Well Reykjavik and Brussels are participating. Interesting.

Moving, no concerns over Britt's statement that a particular ethnic group don't want to learn then?

"There isn't a significant number that don't speak English. There is a small minority."

Are you joking? 22 percent is a significant minority.

There is a huge group of us in the UK who think you draw out what you pay in. It happens in life too - if you do good to others they do good back. It is how most of us operate. It is one reason the Tories got in as those of us who work full time got sick of paying parents who work part time through top up tax credits. It feels unfair. We have a huge sense of fairness in the UK which is one reason people flock here. We got sick of the entitled rights culture and wanted to ensure politics moved to hard work and taking out only what you put in.

We do not have space including housing in London for a lot more people at present. Every single new development here goes almost instantly it is on sale in our zone (zone 5). The main issue with immigrants is huge numbers and any imposition of their backwards sexist homophobic culture on the rest of us - we fought long as hard in the UK from the 1800s to rid the UK of sexism, long skirts women can't move in, requirements to cover your ankles, men owning women, only men voting etc and we still remember those battles. If we import people with different values we destroy our fairness to women and kill the culture of equality unless we can force those people to adopt modern values rather than values made by patriarchal invented religions more suitable for deserts 2000 years ago than today.

*I won't tell you for whom I worked - but I will tell you that I was "strong-armed" in to hiring people with PhDs which weren't worth the paper they were printed on the street corner on! It was an open secret that qualifications could be "bought".

Makes me feel quite fluffy inside to learn that only the highly educated, highly literate enter Europe. There was me knowing thinking so many immigrants were illiterate in their own languages...*

Grace, sorry but that attitude disgusts me. That's really your response to my suggestion that a degree from Gaza can be held in high esteem? Sure, people get fake qualifications but to act like that's the norm for people from outside the EU? Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone from Iraq to get to do their PhD in Britain? First, you need to get to a test centre which offers the correct kind of IELTS test for your degree. That might be 100 miles away, through ISIL-held territory. If you are found to have a fraudulent IELTS, no matter how desperate your circumstances, you are barred from ever applying to the university you used it for again. We had a Kurdish student who basically kissed his parents goodbye every time he had to go to Baghdad for his visa appointments, because if ISIL happened to run into him, a Kurd trying to leave Mosul, he'd be in a fuckload of bother.

You don't have to agree with me, but please don't denigrate hardworking, intelligent people in desperate circumstances because you reckon any PhD from outside the EU must have been bought.

Once again, I need to fuck off from this thread for my own sanity. i'm still angry about what's happening to women in Europe, I still think this is a women's issue but I know that to be listened to and taken seriously you can't deal in reactionary bullshit.

What Britt actually said:
there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently
What Someone says Britt said:
Britt's statement that a particular ethnic group don't want to learn

Not the same fucking thing at all, is it?

'there is one ethnicity that disrupts all the time apparently'
so lumela you rather than question what on earth this means?

Wind your neck in agent c - I didn't say anything about engineers from gaza. I didn't even mention the ethnicity of the people to whom I was referring.