Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

So no immigrant can ever be entitled or ungrateful? Even on an idividual level?

I think the tide might be turning in Sweden.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3447576/One-man-stabbed-death-three-injured-latest-mass-brawl-gangs-Swedish-migrant-centre.html

Emily you're procrastinating again. Maybe, just maybe, I am "entitled " to want ALL children in the UK to have access to a good education (and that includes children who have come into the UK from other countries ), but are you silly enough not to be able to see the bigger picture of what a poor education , all round, will do? And just because "many immigrants " have less opportunity to an education, why should children in Europe and other developed countries have less too? Your statement is pointless. But I think you're just stalling for time aren't you? You've not come up with your grand plan answer to my question, have you ?

Yes they can cellar, but the comment I responded to didn't state that. Also, immigrants and refugees having opinions or wanting choices or having expectations is sometimes interpreted as being entitled or ungrateful. Sometimes their feelings are misrepresented deliberately. Recently a refugee from Iraq was made to look entitled by a tv news piece stating that he called his new home a 'cowshed', refusing to live in it and saying he wanted to go home. The truth was that he disliked his new home as it was a flat on a top floor and was unsuitable for a family member who was disabled. He had never expressed a desire to go home.

Bloody hell moreshabby, I hadn't heard about that. It seems to be almost once a week that something flares up. I thought that they would want peace after they'd left such violent home countries. Although I expect Emily will be along soon to mitigate this recent, and past events.

I find it unbelievable that a disabled person can make the journey all the way from Iraq but cant manage to get to an upstairs apartment.

That was just 1 man Emily . Just 1. You criticise others for making sweeping generalisations, tell me about others (whilst you're thinking about the answer to my question ).

Looking for information about the Iraqi refugee who was misreported as having described his accommodation as a cowshed, I found these two pieces:

www.romea.cz/en/news/czech/czech-republic-maniuplative-television-report-sparks-hatred-against-christian-refugees-from-iraq

www.romea.cz/en/news/czech/czech-republic-interpreter-confirms-tv-prima-manipulated-footage-of-refugee-interview

Unless I've missed something, there is no mention of a disabled family member, but this may be mentioned in reports in Czech.

Moreshabby. the disabled refugee is a refugee from Iraq approved by the government and funded by the country the flat is in. They made the journey by plane. The flat had inadequate facilities for a disabled person. The government ought to have funded suitable facilities.

Ohfor, immigrants are not to blame for the state of education in the UK. Blaming the poor and vulnerable is abhorrent.

I'm not interested in outlining a plan for immigration for you to critique. You lack the skills clearly as your attitude to immigrants is that of a Sun reader.

that'll be a no then eh Emily?

According to SD newspaper today police in Sweden have been called to 559 registered assaults; 450 fights; 194 violent threats; 58 fires; 2 bomb threats; 9 robberies; 4 rapes & 1 murder. All involving recently arrived asylum seekers.

emily If you read around you will see lots of stories about refugees/migrants complaining about their living conditions etc in Europe....so lets accept that it does happen to some degree.
Now engage brain - WHY did they expect better? Why do they feel entitled to better?
Because maybe the people smugglers give them the false impression?
Coupled with the images they see on tv and the fact that are minimum wage is more per hour than you can earn in a week in some countries...and maybe they don't appreciate just how much higher that makes the cost of living...or that they are likely to end up living in a bed in a shed or worse working illegally and earning much less than the minimum wage just to pay off the smugglers...
Now what is the kindest thing to do? Accept everyone and encourage them to make a dangerous journey, risking their lives whilst lining the pockets of crooks only to end up feeling disappointed and angry and let down (which actually may explain some of the antisocial behaviour) ...or try and stop them coming...
Support the local camps, take the vulnerable from those camps?
I know which I think is the best plan...

Emily cant you see that if we keep letting in all migrants, which you seem to want, there will be less places for genuine refugees such as the man you mentioned. That's what we have been trying to say all through these threads.

moreshabby you're wasting your time. Emily is here only to derail the thread, not to see anyone else's point of view or enter into any meaningful discussion. She won't answer any questions, no matter how often she's asked. She will not offer any solutions, only insults, when she's cornered.

I know Ohfor, been here since way back, just waiting to see what insult I get this time.

What's SD newspaper? I've never heard of it.

They feel entitled to better because they are human beings with feelings and needs. The person I posted about in a previous comment wasn't smuggled, but made to look ungrateful by a media outlet that wanted a 'story' to satisfy the prejudices of idiots.

Look it up Emily.

The real idiots are the ones that think they can fill a pint pot with a gallon and have no spillage.

Longway, that is the one and this article mentions the disabled family member. I think tis is a good example of how legitimate concerns are inflated by the media into entitlement and lackof gratitude.

blisty.cz/art/81083.html

It seems like "refugee" has become a bit of a No True Scotsman term...?

When you have columns of people making their way into Europe, they are all described as refugees--all of them, without exception. No migrants here.

When some of said columns of people misbehave--"No, no, the only true 'refugees' are Syrians. If they come from Morocco and Algeria, they are not refugees."

From a German source:
"[Bremer] did give a breakdown of the figures on the men’s citizenship, showing that the vast majority come from two countries - Morocco and Algeria. Whereas 30 of the suspects come from Morocco and 27 are Algerian, no other nationality has more than four men being investigated, with Iraq having the third-highest at four. “The vast majority of suspects do not have permission to stay in Germany, but this is for different reasons, encompassing people whose asylum applications haven’t been accepted and illegal immigrants,” Bremer said." He also said that the overwhelming majority of suspects arrived in Germany in 2015."

www.thelocal.de/20160215/reports-of-three-refugees-in-cologne-attacks-wrong

My sons school has 90% of children from a migrancy background, even if 3rd/4th generation. Many of the children are recent migrants including a few who have fled persecution in home countries. The school do really well with them and have what they call an international unit. The school outcomes are just on or below national average in literacy and below in some other aspects. The classes at infants are over 30 in all cases as all schools within the city are now full to bursting, it is very difficult to move your child if you move in the city too. They are given some extra resource to help support children coming from abroad but it isn't huge and resources are stretched and money has had to be found from other areas of the school budget. If for example we had an influx into the area of 100 -150 children of primary age they would have to be placed in schools that are already over limits, our school would probably be getting over 35 in infants and into 40s in junior classes. This would put a strain on the teaching staff unless we could have more TAs etc and the classrooms are actually physically small. All schools within city are stretched.

The problem is not with the children fitting in etc, they do that brilliantly, but giving the right resources to all the kids concerned including incoming children.

The Iraqi guy who complained about the flat was right in one aspect, it was not suitable for his family member. But what if it was the only accommodation that could be found at short notice? What would he say to the British homeless family who are crammed in one room in a b&b that is dirty, with a shared kitchen and bathroom. Calling it a cowshed is not going to endear yourself to anyone, sticking to unsuitable would have been rather more persuasive.

I am sure not all refugees are like that, but it does not help the perception of the group as a whole when this is reported, it will fuel right wing sentiment.

By the way Emily, you do need to be very clear in your meaning as it can be read a variety of ways, so if you are going to use terms like "nasty bigot" you need to make sure you are clear in what you are referencing.

I will qualify the above statement by saying I am not anti- migrant but we need to make sure that any solutions to this crisis are well thought out for the benefit of all concerned and that refugees and the most vulnerable are at the top of our priority list as they are in greatest need.

I missed your link and there does seem to be a bit of he said, she said. And it does seem to be a genuine mistake rather than placing the family intentionally in unsuitable accommodation. There does seem to be a certain level of expectation on the part of migrants which I suspect might be laid at the door of traffickers, after all if someone thinks their life is going to be worse in Europe they are not going to make the journey and pay for it.

Perhaps the key is indeed making life better in the camps (better education, employment, accommodation etc) so that the risky journey and disappointment at the end are not necessary.

Just seen Assad is not bothering with ceasefire to start. No one said IS were going to be included. Is that his excuse for bombing hospitals?

Sporting, there's no he said she said about it. The tv report stated he called the accomodation a ''cowshed', something he never even said, a deliberate lie. I never said they were intentionally put in unsuitable accomodation. That wasn't the point I was making. The point was that what the refugee said was completely and deliberately misinterpreted by the media in order to make him look ungrateful and to please the largely anti refugee audience.

This man never made a risky journey. He was sponsored by a group of Czech sponsors that arranged for him and 150 others to come. There is some controversy over this as they are Christian refugees only.

In the case of tis guy,it wasn't found at short notice. It was the fault of the group that organised for them to come. There was a lot of pre planning involved.

Did you read the article? He never called it a cowshed. The tv company claimed he did but they lied. The media sometimes misrepresent information to make refugees and immigrants look ungrateful. The tv company may actually be sued over this.

I don't see what homeless families have to do with refugees apart from the government abdicating responsibility for them as well.

The media also misrepresent information to make refugees and immigrants appear to all be genuine, law abiding people but of course you don't acknowledge that do you Emily.

Ok so they have made a deliberate misrepresentation in this case, it's not good and it will feed into the far right if not refuted, but the sentence at the end suggested at least some at the TV station were standing by their version so not clear. It's clear that the group of sponsors planning went wrong, sometimes people do mess up. Are they helping and trying to source alternative accommodation for this gentleman and his family?

The reference to homeless British families in b&b is that if the statement were true, and he was shown the accommodation that others have to put up with he might not feel quite so hard done by.

Others are making the risky journey though, in expectation that they will be starting a new life with significantly better conditions. Often to find that they are then put in refugee accommodation which wildly differs from what they have been led to expect, it doesn't marry up with what they see on TV or indeed what they are told. Many of them will experience anger and disappointment, coupled with the real challenges of getting used to new culture/language etc, it's going to be difficult for them to see a way forward.

I understand the issue of them being Christian refugees only but there is significant and growing risk to this grouping in the ME, so I assume the need was there. And having a lot of friends from Eastern Europe I do know that it wouldn't be easy to bring Muslim refugees into this part of the world, I don't agree with the stance and some of them don't either but sadly that is the reality. As I understand you live in that part of Europe I think you know all to well what I mean.

Crikey - wish folk would resist engaging with Emily's two penny worth. These threads get tedious to read.