Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

.. 'they are careful to trot out sympathetic murmurings occasionally to show they are 'on side' with this issue. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.'

Yes Brit - that is what I have observed and concluded.

What a damn shame it all is . I guess with increased globalisation/awareness of disparities plus war, people are going to mobilise and challenge our safe, blinkered experience of the world. Especially when they artive actuslly on our doorstep. Less easy to be quite so liberal and culturally accommodating then.

I have a dream of how a happy world should look like - that is the Leftie side of me. There would be contentment, good health, no poverty, low crime rates, proper democracy, no cruelty. But the means to achieve that harmonious and happy world can only be achieved by leaders with a firm hand, who take no prisoners so to speak, and they would need to be in office for longer than 4 years.

You might say the means to achieving my vision of a better world would be using Rightwing tactics. And that is the dichotomy is it not?

'You might say the means to achieving my vision of a better world would be using Rightwing tactics. And that is the dichotomy is it not?'

Yes you're preaching good today Brit

It's a dichotomy in so far as it sits uncomfortably with our European post-war liberalism.

Many countries I've lived in do not operate like that. There are strict laws and everyone knows and expects punishment for breaking them, particularly, and I think especially, immigrants as I was.

I think tightening our UK laws will, by removing any doubt as to what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, especially sexual crimes, only be a good thing.

I don't want to send messages that anything goes here and women and girls and gay people are fair game and second class citizens.

As somebody said upthread: Gender equality and women's rights should feature just as heavily and prominently in education from nursery to University as religious tolerance and RE.

Immigration expert chris caldwell " the price of increased diversity has been diminished liberty" .

I think tightening our UK laws will, by removing any doubt as to what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, especially sexual crimes, only be a good thing.

Singapore has tough laws about conduct in public spaces, over-display of affection between man & woman, litter, etc. Ignorance is no excuse, even for visitors, everyone is on the 'same page' and the system works.

Perhaps Britt but I don't feel happy about being unable to kiss or show affection to my dh when out somewhere just because we need to have a tough law to show a migrant he must not sexually assault a girl.

No bloody way!

I don't think we need to have laws limiting consensual displays of affection.

We do need to start sending loud and clear messages about non-consensual attention. Increased police presence? Draconian sentencing?

I did say over-affectionate, not just kissing but going at it hammer & tong (?tongue!). Okay then.

Britt, you should read the Nick Cohen book that I'm ploughing through at the moment, where he says something to effect that efforts to reach the ideal society always need coercion, because real people have a nasty habit of going off-message and requiring re-education in distant places surrounded by barbed wire.

Shall we try and put together a list of MPs/journos worth emailing/contacting? We could then undertake to contact a certain number each, asking for publicity for the petition, and asking the politicos if they would consider some sort of cross-party working group. Any takers for this idea?

Me! Coordinated and continuos pressure please.

Not at home at mo but will dig out some lists later on.

These are the refugees who need help:
www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/02/life-female-refugee-don-trust-160210092005932.html

Not these people:
www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/12/despair-anguish-moroccans-stuck-greek-border-151219081129816.html

And the more young men who haven't managed to get work in their own countries economic migrants there are joining the refugees, the fewer resources are available for the most vulnerable, the women and children.

It appears that Aylan's father may have been one of the smugglers and may have been driving the boat that capsized. He has denied and I cannot find anything further on this.

www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-turkey-iraq-idUSKCN0RB2BE20150911

Yes Lumela I want to get the Cohen book, but Amazon does not have it in hardback at the moment. I cant be doing with paperback.

Headline in the independent today -"Only 3 of 58 Men Arrested in Cologne are Refugees"

And according to them, none were recently arrived. So there you go everyone, stop complaining, nothing to see here.

Except the actual article they are sourcing says nothing about the number of refugees, only that there are some. And doesn't mention when they arrived in Germany. Here is the original translated text from the German article cited by the Independent:

"With regard to the nationality of the accused, the Cologne public prosecutor's office said that it is 25 Algerians, 21 Moroccans, three Tunisians, three German, two Syrians and an Iraqi respectively, Libyans, Iranians and Montenegrins. Among the accused are minors and adolescents, as well as asylum seekers and illegal entrants. Some defendants were already known to the police."

How can they get away with such blatant misrepresentation of the facts?

Here is the late, great Hitchens' review of Cohen's book. Nine years old already.

nickcohen.net/2012/02/20/a-man-with-a-score-to-settle-christopher-hitchensreview-of-whats-left/

Speaking of Hitchens, here was a man who was very Left wing but nevertheless a critic of Islam, the ME culture and a supporter of going to war in Iraq (which I was not). So being a Leftie does not preclude anyone from exercising commonsense and not buying into the apologists' kneejerk 'understanding' suicide bombers, spitting on our returning soldiers but not condeming crucifixions in the desert.

I want to live in dignity and respect like everyone else. Now we're stuck

From the aljazeerah article.

What does that mean, live in dignity and respect? Like whom?

The more I read the more it strikes me that someone somewhere is feeding these deluded kids some top grade horseshit about the 'rights' they're going to swan in and be showered with in Europe.

It's a cruel trick. For all concerned.

"The hard left has junked its historic secularism, to say nothing of its principles of equality for females and homosexuals, to make common cause with Muslim outfits some of which are associated in other countries with the extreme right. It has done this by the use of nonsense terms such as “Islamophobia”, which are designed to give the no-less nonsensical impression that Islam is some kind of persecuted ethnicity. But the vile attacks by Islamists on the Jews (Britain’s oldest minority) and on India (Britain’s most important democratic ally after the United States) show the truly reactionary and hateful character of the opportunist alliance between failed ex-Stalinists and fanatical theocrats." Christopher Hitchens

January Courtesy is what one should expect of others, not respect. Respect is earned. And dignity you either have or you don't.

longwayround

yes! thanks for those two articles, what a bloody joke! What a bloody joke!
Perhaps your right January, someone might be feeding them shite, its incredulous.

Apart from anything else is there no one back at home, in Morocco to say " son....there is a fucking nasty war going on and people are fleeing for their lives, you stay here at home where you are SAFE AND leave the resources and space for those fleeing???"

I would be ashamed in my DC tried to cadge in on open borders in time of war to make gains for themselves!
Its shocking!

is there no one back at home, in Morocco to say " son....there is a fucking nasty war going on and people are fleeing for their lives, you stay here at home where you are SAFE AND leave the resources and space for those fleeing???

Yes, there are some Moroccans who see it like that, but not enough. I posted on one of the earlier threads that two young men from a family I know very well left Morocco at the beginning of December to travel via Turkey, Greece and the Balkans to Germany. (They've actually made it to Italy now, where they have relatives - at least this means that they won't be joining the crowds of single young men in Germany with no family supervision.) Their immediate families simply thought that this was a great way to get to Europe, where it is assumed there are jobs for all, however unskilled :(

Ironically, the two in question have sisters who have worked hard throughout their schooling, gained vocational or academic qualifications, and are now working in Morocco. They are the ones who deserve dignity and respect, not the boys who are lazy, entitled and shiftless.

'Actually and just for the record, I am a trained Samaritan. Years ago I served 5 straight years on the phones, and on the midnight shift as well. What else do you want to include ..... the kitchen sink? Have you heard of the Iranian stand-up comic, Omid Djalili, or Shazia Mirza? Have you actually heard of anything emily, do you know anything'.

Britt, I find that very hard to believe with the attitude you displayed that displayed a lack of sensitivity at quite a basic level. I don't know what you mean about kitchen sinks. Not making racist jokes is actually not much of a struggle for most people.

'Emily has an odd attitude to women's safety'.

I don't agree. It's different to yours. I don't think focusing on one group or slating refugees and Muslims is helpful.

'There is a group of posters here who do not care a damn about Western women's safety so their presence should be concerning'.

I do give a damn but disagree with you and some other people as to how we can keep women safe.

'Their dislike of the West comes across loud and clear, despite themselves living in the West'.

Really? Is that aimed at me? No idea where you get that from. I think many people living in Europe dislike things that are happening and things that politicians are doing. That doesn't constitute a dislike of the West.

Moving, here is a definition of 'influx'.

an arrival or entry of large numbers of people or things.
"a massive influx of tourists"

There is no influx in the UK, if that is where you live. Immigrants are a minority and remain so in the UK where they are not admitted in large numbers. The numbers admitted are unlikely to have a hugely detrimental impact on life.

Grace, anti Polish? Can you give an example of that, other than my statement that they are the highest foreign group populating UK prisons. The second highest is Irish I believe. Does saying that make me anti Irish? My comment on Polish prison population was to demonstrate the illogicallity of these threads, positing that Muslims are a 'danger' when other groups appear to commit more crime. My intention was not to say, 'NO, it's the Poles that are the baddies!' as crime is complex and often points to social exclusion and many factors. The fact that some Poles commit crimes does mean that I believe Polish immigrants sould be restricted.

'I would suggest that Little Miss Shouty starts her own thread elsewhere as she's convinced absolutely NO posters that her way is the right (badoom tish). It's exactly as I've stated above... they actually believe that by the continuous tub-thumping that they've "won hearts & minds"... and then the X goes in the box'.

I don't believe I will win any earts and minds here. I just think there should be a counterpoint to a lot of the bollocks being talked here.

The moniker 'little Miss Shouty' is a bit childish. Hardly anyone has opposed the views on these threads. I don't think my view is any 'shoutier' than anyone elses.

Where is my 'xenophobic rhetoric¨?

No, a mouse, I don't wish to have 'a pop' at the Germans. Why would I? I spent last weekend with someone whose Grandad's name was Adolf who was picked on at school because of it. I think tjose kind of jokes are unacceptable too and can see the damage they cause.

'Some Swedes I know spent time after school volunteering in India. They are big-hearted liberal people and they find the entitlement of current migrants in Sweden quite upsetting'.

Some Swedes would say that most migrants are not 'entitled' at all and that the picture you are trying to paint of them as ungrateful is rather inaccurate and hysterical.