Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Notwithstanding MN guidelines, I get the sense that this thread has become the Lumela Thread, and it is she who allows or disallows postings

Thank you for all the thoughts you've shared, Britt. I've enjoyed your contributions very much, but I think that comment above is a bit harsh. Lumela started this thread; there have been eight of them and each one has been an uphill battle to balance between open discourse and attempting to ignore posters with clear opposing agendas who attempt to police every word.

That's the problem; those dull zealots who are hell-bent on wilful misinterpretation to try and shut down the debate.

I don't know if it's because they are threatened by the nuanced, independent content that doesn't fit their cliche-ridden polemic or if they have little else to live for, but it has become apparent for these discussions to continue that we need to be clear ourselves about the parameters of the conversation.

We are hoping very much that there will be a positive outcome; that we can affect a debate at a high level which recognises the potential threat to women and homosexual personal safety in particular, and the open democratic culture we enjoy in general, and examine ways to protect all of those rights.

And sadly the debate will be closed down if these threads are deleted. That's what makes it important to keep making distinctions for those who are determined to see bigotry where there is none.

But Mouse those who want to stifle debate are succeeding. Why waste time in stopping to shoot down one of their comments, why waste time to even engage? And if there is wilful misunderstanding, then let it be - you don't rise to it.

why waste time to even engage?

Hear hear!

So. Where are we on the email campaign and did anyone ever get s reply from Honeyball? Perhaps she missed our emails. I might resend mine

I agree Britt but a comment taken out of context, ambiguous, whoever is moderating has not read the whole thread, see's one thing and deletes...too many comments and the whole thread is gone

God, that was an epic cross-post, wasn't it?

but do you honestly think that being offended is so bad?
No, I don't. It takes a lot to offend me personally. But some people find some things genuinely upsetting, and there are also people who will get upset on other people's behalf and try to hang you for it. And I do get fed up when the same old stereotypes get wheeled out over and over again.

Just look at the 'essay' you wrote yesterday at 17:20 to another poster. You have taken on the role of a school mistress.
If you say so. She was being unreasonably rude about posters on this thread (me included), so I stood up for them. Sorry.

FWIW, I don't think it was me who reported that 'joke'. I did report the repetition of it in emily's post, though, when I noticed that it was still standing.

Why waste time in stopping to shoot down one of their comments, why waste time to even engage?
There is one poster who I have stopped engaging with, but now and then I am overwhelmed by the urge to get accurate information out there...

And if there is wilful misunderstanding, then let it be - you don't rise to it.
And if the comment is not defended or further explained, off they trot to MN and the thread is zapped. I'm sure that's not what you want to happen.

Ohfor, closed down? Hardly North Korea here is it? Where are the personal insults?

Catcha 'a proven and disproportionate problem with crime, particularly violent and sexual crime among certain demographics'.

Where are these facts and stats?

' I don't care if others want to stereotype my ethnic group. When they do, it is funny. And the reason stereotypes are funny is because there is an itsy bit of accuracy that we all recognise. A good comic or joke will nail it just right. The joke I posted was topical and I thought there was enough maturity on this thread to understand it'.

Britt, perhaps you would feel very differently if your ethnic group was continually attacked and presented negatively. Those jokes might not seem so funny then. Jokes based on some Pakistanis being suicide bombers are not funny and I do question the intelligence of those that think they are. That is not an itsy bitsy bit of accuracy, more a rather large does of prejudice. Your joke was prejudiced, not funny and pretty crap.

'I am first generation British and I have a sense of humour. I don't care if others want to stereotype my ethnic group. When they do, it is funny. And the reason stereotypes are funny is because there is an itsy bit of accuracy that we all recognise. A good comic or joke will nail it just right.

Yes Brit absolutely agree. In my workplace there is a lot of funny banter between the ethnic groups and it really works. We are very bonded as a team. Humour plays a big part.

Hardly North Korea here is it?

Actually with double speak and so on I think there has been a north korea, communist element on these threads.

Emily I am wondering how much more you are going to be chewing on the bone of Britts joke for? Must be down to the marrow now?

Emily, I can't think of a nation that doesn't have some sort of stero type.
I am married to a German and Germans get a lot of stick.

Let me say that again. Germans get lots of stick abuse esp in this country.

The amount of times, commentators on TV - esp in footy when Germany v England play - are free with what are really quite rude remarks, no one thinks twice about taking the piss out of them, Not hard is it? The accent lends itself to being spoken in a jokey - Nazi type way....then when you get past the war, there are many other jokes to be had, and piss takes like sun loungers, not understanding jokes and so on. Germans are still very much fair game let me tell you.

You yourself have mentioned the Nazi's over and over on this thread and yet look what Stalin did? Rarely mentioned though....Look what communism did over the whole of eastern europe, rarely mentioned.

The Poles in our family also hate the Germans. They hate them. I am told, Germans in Poland itself come in for quite a bit of abuse and physical attacks. My Polish friends have told me they will never go to Germany and wounds from the war are still very raw. The poles in my family have been quite rude and horrid to the Germans. When the Poles tell me with tears in their eyes how their family was annihilated by the Nazis I cant help but have sympathy for them, although carrying with it now is stupid.

My DH brushes it off, and is not bothered, and although sometimes I flinch I also brush it off. Some things are true and they are funny, I often pull DH leg about his love of Order...

I brush off silly things people say about British People. Its all swings and round abouts.

and I wonder amouse, how long you'll be making excuses for racist jokes for... quite some time it seems

You seem to think horrible racist stereotypes are ok if someone says, oh, it's a joke.

'You yourself have mentioned the Nazi's over and over on this thread and yet look what Stalin did? Rarely mentioned though....Look what communism did over the whole of eastern europe, rarely mentioned'. Off on a tangent much?

'The Poles in our family also hate the Germans. They hate them. I am told, Germans in Poland itself come in for quite a bit of abuse and physical attacks. My Polish friends have told me they will never go to Germany and wounds from the war are still very raw. The poles in my family have been quite rude and horrid to the Germans. When the Poles tell me with tears in their eyes how their family was annihilated by the Nazis I cant help but have sympathy for them, although carrying with it now is stupid'.

Relevance?

'The amount of times, commentators on TV - esp in footy when Germany v England play - are free with what are really quite rude remarks, no one thinks twice about taking the piss out of them, Not hard is it? The accent lends itself to being spoken in a jokey - Nazi type way....then when you get past the war, there are many other jokes to be had, and piss takes like sun loungers, not understanding jokes and so on. Germans are still very much fair game let me tell you'.

So you're excusing Britt's joke by saying other people make racist nasty jokes?

I think there is a bloody big difference between the kinds of jokes people make about British people and jokes about Pakistanis being suicide bombers.

Britt also has an odd attitude to mental health as she incorporated The Samaritans into one of her 'jokes'.

It goes on being a bizarre feature of these threads that Emily (and to a lesser extent others including me) are seen as such a threat. I do wonder what motives those that think she is 'trying to shut down' free speech, think that she has?

I suppose it is easier to project sinister motives than to engage with the idea that some people are seriously worried about a persecuted group becoming even more persecuted. And are worried about scapegoating helping this process.

Worrying about that does not take away from understanding that women can be horrifically abused.

Twisted I think emily is a special case ...rarely answers a question asked of her etc. I think I would describe her as 'away with the fairies'.

But the general 'Emily et al' I don't think are seen as a threat - I think sometimes it is pure frustration at the apparent fingers in the ears, head in sand mentality. It gets in the way of the important questions and looking for answers.
It is reminiscent of the attempted cover up by the police. That the media (eg the Guardian), feminists etc were too afraid to report this -because it goes against a certain left wing mentality ... and also a fear that it will incite that persecution.
I don't know how many times on one of these threads someone can say - not talking about it, pretending it didn't happen, worrying about offending certain sections of the population will only play into the right wing agenda.
People are not blind - you may not have wanted this to happen (no-one did) but it has.
So you face it - warts and all - and you deal with it...because that is how you prevent it -or worse happening again. That is actually how you prevent the persecution.

So a certain group of young men from an apparently similar background were responsible for these 'unprecedented' (to quote the police chief) attacks.
So why? Is it their background/culture? Is it ignorance?
What are the consequences of their actions? What can they be?
It seems likely part of the reason for their behaviour is an attitude to women - possibly specifically western women? Lets look at why they have that attitude?
Is there any precedent in this country of apparent reluctance to report/talk about similar incidents - yes
(And lets not forget that the politicians initial response was to put the responsibility onto the women - the victims and to recommend they curtailed their freedom in order to be safe)
So the hard won rights and freedoms of women are treated as less important.
Can we accept that for the 'greater good' to protect a 'persecuted' group?
Maybe we could as a one off...but it isn't a one off. We can't give an inch of our rights - we just can't.

Especially not when in the name of religion Syrian women under Daesh or Afghan women under the Taliban are treated the way they are/ were...
If we sacrifice our freedoms will that help them?
Yes things aren't perfect here for women -but importing problems is not going to make that better.

These men do not appear to be genuine refugees from Syria or indeed any war torn countries but appear to have come along with refugees. They seem to be economic migrants. Is that a bad thing? How do stop that happening? How do you deal with the fact they have? What is the solution? No borders? Do you think that would work?

Endless questions ...looking for answers, needing healthy, hearty discussion...
But at the same time you have someone saying what about the poor refugees? (erm..... seems they weren't refugees)
Saying 'but this isn't Islam' (And that is open to debate -but not when someone can't enter the debate because by their own admission they know nothing about Islam...)
Or not all Muslims are like that ..and I'd agree to an extent but would also point out that shows that a large percentage from all over the world have certain beliefs that don't sit easy with our liberal western culture. We could even then argue that the Modern western culture hasn't got it right....
But not if the facts are met with outright denial...
We can have different opinions - we can disagree but you can't ignore the truth/facts or refuse to answer difficult questions ...that just makes people frustrated...

Actually and just for the record, I am a trained Samaritan. Years ago I served 5 straight years on the phones, and on the midnight shift as well. What else do you want to include ..... the kitchen sink? Have you heard of the Iranian stand-up comic, Omid Djalili, or Shazia Mirza? Have you actually heard of anything emily, do you know anything.

Another poster loftily talks about being worried about a persecuted group (who is that?) conveniently ignoring that it is women who are the persecuted in this case, in their own countries as well.

Emily has an odd attitude to women's safety.

There is a group of posters here who do not care a damn about Western women's safety so their presence should be concerning. Their dislike of the West comes across loud and clear, despite themselves living in the West. Virtually everything that is posted is criticised, but just to add to the mix they are careful to trot out sympathetic murmurings occasionally to show they are 'on side' with this issue. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

There is definitely a debate to be had about how best to integrate this new influx into our relatively liberal European societies, especially when it's comprised primarily of men who have often been brought up with very different views from ours on the position of women.

I was reflecting on my own experience - in my life, i have faced 5 sexual incidents/attacks (sadly, I'm sure this is typical) ranging from trivial to much less so, 3 of these were in my own country, one by a man in a position of authority over me, 1 a romantic situation, 2 were while I was living in the Middle East (discretely dressed, wearing a wedding ring)...

So in my case, 40% were in a country where many, certainly not all, boys/men were undereducated, often under-employed, segregated from girls/women at school, at work, on the street, even in the home.. This creates a very volatile situation and has a huge effect on the position of women, they can come to be seen by many men only in a sexual or 'to be protected' way - the typical virgin or whore, this is exacerbated by the fact that Tv shows in this particular country typically portrayed all Western women as prostitutes.

The above is my direct experience, I am not making any sweeping generalisation, I feel strongly that we must have our eyes open when we take these refugees to ensure respect for Our values is still enshrined in our every day lives along with the safety and liberty of women in Europe.

And I don't want to be protected in England, I want to be free and safe to live my life, I especially want that for my God-daughters. So less of the curtailing our rights in order to keep us safe crap

Thanks for your posts, Movingon. It sounds like a herculean task and recalibrating the migrant men cannot be done in even one generation. What do women do in the meantime?

Syria and Iraq appear to be the only countries in that part of the world who were secular in their approach. I know from two ME friends that all faiths co-existed with no discrimination in those two countries. I recall years ago typing a report for my boss who travelled the world as ambassador of the pharmaceutical company we both worked for. I always remember that his report on Syria was fascinating and amazing to me then. It said that women were very well represented in the professions, and I thought to myself what a good thing that was and how hopeful it sounded for the whole of the ME.

Britt, I think you have a point about dislike of the West. There is a definite strain of Left-wing thought that lays the blame for all the World's evils at the feet of the West and so supports any anti-Western ideology that presents itself, even if that ideology (like the mullahs' in Iran) is essentially fascist. I say this as a liberal/leftie myself.

There is also the issue that human rights abuses committed by democracies get far more airtime than those committed by totalitarian regimes, simply because they're easier to find out about. This can tend to give the impression that democracies as just as murderous as totalitarian states. If anyone thinks about this they know it's wrong, but nonetheless there's this undercurrent of feeling that democracies are wicked too and could maybe be just as wicked.

Britt Afghanistan dangerousminds.net/comments/it_didnt_always_suck_to_be_a_woman_in_afghanistan and Iran www.pagef30.com/2009/04/iran-in-1970s-before-islamic-revolution.html were also both countries were women had freedom and approaching equality in living memory. Even in Egypt women seem to have more freedom pre the revolution.
It seems if a political void is left it is filled by religious extremists.
If we think this could never happen in the Western world we are being naive.

Ignore, ignore, ignore. Shouting the loudest is the politics of the left who are unable to comprehend the most basic of logic (she's also quite "anti-Polish" which is fascinating given her xenophobic rhetoric). Cast your minds back to the last General Election... so sure of themselves, yet FOUR MILLION people (of all those of voting age who could be arsed to fill in a ballot) voted UKIP.

I would suggest that Little Miss Shouty starts her own thread elsewhere as she's convinced absolutely NO posters that her way is the right (badoom tish). It's exactly as I've stated above... they actually believe that by the continuous tub-thumping that they've "won hearts & minds"... and then the X goes in the box.

unlucky You're absolutely right - life in Egypt for women is now very different pre Arab-spring - although the FGM statistics were always quite extraordinary. You are also of course absolutely right about the political void and current apathy.

While i agree that life in Egypt is now worse for women, it wasnt exactly a picnic before the revolution. At least as soon as you left the metropolitan, middle class parts of Cairo. Even there there was segregation of the sexes to some significant degree and Western women were typically viewed as ehores by all but the educated elite. And this when it was more liberal, more so than now and more so than its neighbours.

You seem to think horrible racist stereotypes are ok if someone says, oh, it's a joke.

You have unsurprisingly completely missed the point of my post.

But it wouldn't surprise me, if somewhere in you - based on your previous posts, that you secretly think its OK to have a pop at the Germans because of their past.

from Alice Thompons article on the scandi countries,( The Times) worth a read...

" Its the litter we cant cope with" says a Norwegian friend. " Norwegian children are taught to revere their environment, but now there are bottles and wrappers all over the streets" She and her daughter volunteer at a migrant center but she is struggling with her conscience.

Then she goes to say how wonderful scandi countries are, free, liberal, top of happy tables, great standard of living.

"If they want to continue to be at the forefront of secular liberal values, particularly sexual equality, they must be prepared to challenge their new comers prejudices rather than ignore them as the Swedish Police did after Afghan assulym seekers sexually assaulted teenage girls at two pop festivals.

" In other words they will have to be tough to be kind to ensure that their newly diverse countries proper without being becoming prejudiced."

Yes Lumela the West is held to a different standard in the world, which is to be expected. But type of crime/rate of crime, etc is comparable only within the West with adjustments made between Europe and N. America.

The constant attempts to state that the same crimes committed in the West by Westerners are also committed elsewhere in the world is a non-starter.

To bury the reason for the Cologne attacks by pointing out that cat-calling, whistling at women, touching up and rape happens everywhere is puerile. Firstly, European men are receptive to admonishment, reason and they know it is socially unacceptable or a downright crime.

Since the 1960s I would suggest there have been massive changes at a psyche level that we have all undergone; there was a period when men did say they were confused about what women wanted, but we have all come through. That is our journey in the West but women are being asked (without being asked) to let go of the advantages and freedoms we have today. We are expected to comply, because to continue as we are would inflame and upset migrant men to such a degree that they could no longer control themselves (and the police do not have the manpower to respond to women phoning them for help when they have been circled by migrant men).

Western women would continue to be such a source of outrage to them that they would feel entitled to admonish us. (The subtext of course is, look at it from their point of view ...... they have never seen women in train carriages greeting men they know, sitting in cafes by themselves, only hookers do that, etc).

Merkel has thrown the quality of life in her nation under the bus along with its women.

The Syrians are from a secular society on the whole and they will integrate well, but the millions of others will not.

This is what will happen unless the governments, police, media and lefties refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem emerging in Europe.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3443786/Forget-decency-fight-sex-jihad-Femme-fatale-extremist-Pegida-group-accuses-Muslims-targeting-Western-women-gay-men-calls-public-grab-pitchforks.html

AMouse (and that song has been fiddling round my little brain all morning, cheers !) that is increasingly how I think we need to start thinking too.

The scandis of my acquaintance are becoming increasingly fed up with being taken for granted. I read an article recently where an economic migrant said he was going home because cigarettes were so expensive, he was bored in the asylum
centre and he didn't like the food.

Some Swedes I know spent time after school volunteering in India. They are big-hearted liberal people and they find the entitlement of current migrants in Sweden quite upsetting.

There seems to be less desire to 'educate' and much more 'teach a lesson' now. I think your article supports that impression.