Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

My self worth doesn't expand by being surrounding by white people

Oh dear.

Nor does mine, given that I've spent most of my life surrounded by people of other cultures in other countries, some of whom were wonderful, some not, skin colour irrelevant.

This comment makes absolutely no sense at all and I have highlighted it not to engage in life-sapping polemic with a silly racist, but more to illustrate the non-sequiturs used by those who have very little to contribute on a practical level.

It's a racist, illogical comment that adds nothing concrete to a debate which, I hope, is taking place far above racist nonsense about skin colour.

Emily why do you always close down any thread that, until you arrive, is in the main, reasoned; well thought out and wellet researched? You have a predilection for shutting down any poster with whom you do not agree with simply by resorting to petty insults. There have been times when I have agreed with some of your posts, usually on this subject, but your default reaction when faced with irrefutable evidence, is always the same - personal insults. And I'm afraid that's when I turn away from you.

I do find it a bit daft to come up with examples of people we know who are just regular law-abiding, non-raping good guys from [insert African/Asian/MENA country of choice] as a way of showing that we must have got the wrong end of the stick about all the others, in spite of evidence that there is, statistically speaking, a proven and disproportionate problem with crime, particularly violent and sexual crime among certain demographics.

No-one is suggesting that every Somali or every Moroccan is a criminal or a sex attacker, just that there is a serious emerging problem with organised crime among Somalis in the UK and Moroccans elsewhere in Europe.

emilybohemia It was you who was talking to me as if I am stupid. You know that very well. I said ...
"Don't talk to me as if I am stupid." You're doing it again ..... making things up.

Apologies ..... I misread something (cat's tail in the way), so pls ignore my comment at 07:59:06. Thanks.

Emily back again? You can always tell.

As someone who worked briefly in probation there were often targeted approaches to each community (Poles included) as each communities' needs were often different and the breakdown of crimes different and unique to that demographic. As the comment about the Somali community upthread by the police officer highlighted there are difficulties unique to that community. Not everyone in that community is criminal but we have to understand the drivers within it which come from the make-up of that community and factors which come from integration into the UK/Europe. Just like I cited the article from the Independant which highlighted the drivers within the Muslim community in this country: educational opportunities, lack of feeling integrated and family breakdown feeding into lack of employment chances.

To help each community stay within the law we must understand how each differs and how they may infringe the law. For example many Poles have issues with alcohol, you see it round here a lot but if you don't understand the drivers (isolation, low wages and being cut off from family structures) you might say "Oh they are just all heavy drinkers".

No we are not saying all ME/NA are sex attackers, but if you understand where someone comes from, you understand what may drive them.

Assuming each community understands our law and social norms in the same way is misguided, especially when they have come from a very different environment.

Catchaplane ..... No-one is suggesting that every Somali or every Moroccan is a criminal or a sex attacker, just that there is a serious emerging problem with organised crime among Somalis in the UK and Moroccans elsewhere in Europe.

Exactly. That's what I said back there but was jumped on by people giving me examples of exceptions to the rule. There are always exceptions to any rule.

And Lumela this thread is going nowhere if you continue to act as an online bully by, for example, calling me a "bullshit merchant." Nothing will change if you steer debate away from the kernel of any situation. Why is it okay to ethnically describe the Cologne attackers, but I cannot state my own observations, experience and what the police in my area say? What's wrong with that.

I know Somali women in my street, we take tea together from time to time. They work hard, but their menfolk do not. From them I have an insight into their life in England. One of them said that the only respite she gets is when her husband is in jail.

grimble thank you for posting your MPs response.

range of police, security and immigration databases for details of any UK or known overseas criminal record.

Is all well and good, but what if the country from which the person is entering has different laws regarding sexual abuse and what actually constitutes a crime?

I remember going to a conference years ago when the flow of EU citizens was being ferverently encouraged by Blair and a speaker said that he was concerned because in certain countries records had been destroyed.

And that in others, sexual misdemeanour covered everything from heckling to gang rape.

January we do need to factor in that the law can often differ dramatically in countries across the world. Someone may not be aware that what they are doing is infringing our laws.

For example around our community people often fly tip unaware that it isn't something that is done here. But people aren't given a manual in their tongue as they step off the plane/boat/train so are often not aware that what they are doing is wrong.

But as I understand it many of the Cologne attackers would have understood what they were doing was against the law of the land they were in. But they did it anyway which means that they had contempt for it. Sure now there are the leaflets and classes but as what happened at the Carnival showed there are some who sre just going to carry on anyway.

The only way this can be tackled is prosecution and deportation as that kind of contempt for law is not going to be tackled by education.

Before emily says it, I am aware it was not generally Syrians involved and it by no means, means I regard all refugees/migrants/foreigners/men as a threat.

For example around our community people often fly tip unaware that it isn't something that is done here. But people aren't given a manual in their tongue as they step off the plane/boat/train so are often not aware that what they are doing is wrong

Exactly, this is not such an issue when you have a few people coming into any country, the impact of a small amount of fly tipping whilst annoying will be negligible, but hundreds and thousands fly tipping, it becomes a problem, and they have no idea.

This is a huge problem with mass immigration in huge numbers from countries vastly different to our own.

Being anti social and starting an on going relationship with local police, courts and prison is one way of learning the laws, but the locals and the police bear the brunt of this form of learning the laws of the land.

But as I understand it many of the Cologne attackers would have understood what they were doing was against the law of the land they were in. But they did it anyway which means that they had contempt for it

Yes, sadly I think you are right. It is a contemptuousness. And a level of entitlement and arrogance that is hurting genuine refugees.

It is being encouraged by fringe groups here who are manipulating great numbers of young immigrant men to chant and demand to go to certain countries and insist on being given things as their 'rights.'

And who tie themselves in knots to excuse the lawbreaking.

Yes the men do have rights, but not above the rights of others. In their home countries they may have rights above those of women, but it isn't the case in Europe.

And even back in their home country they do not have the right to be given a car/house etc which they seem to think is the case in Europe. Clearly I have also missed out on the right to be given a car/house and had to work for those things instead, maybe I should ask David Cameron to be given a house and car?

The refugee women and children also have rights and they are not below the rights of the male refugees/migrants either.

Each citizen also has responsibilities too...

And Lumela this thread is going nowhere if you continue to act as an online bully by, for example, calling me a "bullshit merchant."
Britt, I didn't call you a bullshit merchant. I said wild generalisations will get the person making them dismissed as a bullshit merchant, which is true (and yes, the comment was sparked by what you had just said). I'm sorry if you think I was being a bully, though; that was not my intention.

However, we're debating a very sensitive topic here and you had generalised about 'Somalis'; you have later qualified those comments by relating them to your own experiences but when you first made them, it sounded as if you were condemning an entire community. You might not have thought that you did, but other people (me included) read it that way, influenced possibly by an earlier comment of yours which MN zapped. It also wasn't clear whether the whole of that section of your post was quoting your local policeman.

Why is it okay to ethnically describe the Cologne attackers, but I cannot state my own observations, experience and what the police in my area say? What's wrong with that.
There's noting wrong with it, provided that you don't generalise it across an entire community - and that's what you seemed to be doing. It's the difference between saying, 'There was a bunch of loud posh kids on the train this evening' and 'Posh kids are loud, obnoxious and selfish'. (You get it a lot on dog threads: someone has had one unhppa

I know it sounds nit-picky, and I get exasperated when things I write are nit-picked, but clarity is really important and generalisations don't tend to improve on that.

Gah,posted too soon.
Meant to say, someone has one unhappy experience with an out of control dog, and all dogs are evil and all dog owners are irresponsible bastards and dog owning should be banned...

Lumela .... "we're debating a very sensitive topic here and you had generalised about 'Somalis'; you have later qualified those comments by relating them to your own experiences but when you first made them, it sounded as if you were condemning an entire community."

Everything I write is either from my own observations/experience, relating someone else's experience or reproducing something I have read. Why would you think otherwise? (Perhaps you are mixing me up with another poster). In fact, why would I even mention a particular ethnicity if it wasnt something I could back up! I do not understand how you think. The earlier comment that you refer to was a joke that you had MN deleted.

No-one is suggesting that every (insert nationality of choice) is a criminal or a sex attacker

No, they're not - perhaps not least because such an assertion would make no sense at all. Unfortunately, no matter how often it's said, there remain some on the extreme left who'll try to insist that's exactly what's meant

In many ways it seems to have taken over from the howls of racism, bigotry and all the rest whenever a poster touched even vaguely on these difficult subjects ... perhaps, since recent events have changed the dialogue somewhat, it's all the extremists have left??

Britt:
Everything I write is either from my own observations/experience, relating someone else's experience or reproducing something I have read. Why would you think otherwise?
I think otherwise because I've been hauled up myself for doing exactly the same thing about far less touchy topics. I have consequently learned from my own experiences that even if you are writing in good faith, other people (even people who are essentially arguing for the same point that you are) will not necessarily take that good faith as read and so you have to be very careful what you say or people, wilfully or genuinely, will take what you say amiss. If you appear to be generalising, then a) there is a risk that you are generalising and b) if you are not, there is a likelihood that someone will misunderstand you; they may misunderstand you on purpose to score a point.

The earlier comment that you refer to was a joke that you had MN deleted.
I didn't find it funny. I thought it was racist. To explain my sensitivity... (This is long and boring, sorry.) My father came from an ethnic group that was often stereotyped in various ways (when it wasn't being entirely ignored as if it didn't exist). These racist stereotypes were unflattering, inaccurate and pervasive. In the written record, members of this group can be identified by their last names if you know what those last names are, and fit the other clues together, but otherwise, they can easily be confused with members of other ethnic groups. So when you have read, as I have, lots of accounts of the time and place where my father grew up, and find members of that community actively identified as such when they have acted according to the stereotype (idle, dishonest, hysterical: 'We all knew that the theft had been committed by A, a member of Z ethnic group...') but not as such when they have acted well (self-sacrificing, generous, helpful: 'B's father, a most helpful local solicitor ethnic group not given'), you get pretty fucked off with stereotypes.

So that is why I think as I do: I want to minimise the chance that I will be misunderstood, and I don't want to insult groups of people en bloc. Both things still happen, though.

so you have to be very careful what you say or people, wilfully or genuinely, will take what you say amiss. If you appear to be generalising, then a) there is a risk that you are generalising and b) if you are not, there is a likelihood that someone will misunderstand you; they may misunderstand you on purpose to score a point.

^^ Yes absolutely, I am guilty of this and not checking what I write sometimes.

I have detailed earlier on my trials living next door to Albanians, Lithuanians, Polish etc and how awful it was, and it wasn't just the house next door but others of a similar set up on the street which caused havoc. We had stabbings in the street, constant violence, glass fights, knife fights, on going parties/drinking, and all kinds of other stuff and this is a multi cultural road, we have always had people from round the world living next door and locally. Myself and my neighbours have always been friendly welcoming anyone next door or on the street. But The demographic changed to seemingly solely Eastern European and it was sheer hell. It was a living endless nightmare.

We were stuck, we couldn't live in our own home anymore, we just existed, our own garden became a no go area ( same for the other side neighbours) our lives were dominated by them, we couldn't sleep, we couldn't have our own parties, in case it gave them the idea it was OK to have them at all...it was a fucking nightmare. We were constantly blocked in on our drive way, the smoking, 5, 10 ,15 people all directly under our windows, all the bloody time..it affected every aspect of our lives. Litter, throwing stuff into our garden, many times the noise was so loud we couldn't even hear ourselves talk in our own living room, they kept us up all night many times a week.

We didn't know what to do with the council if you complain, you then cant sell, but what cold we do we couldn't go on living like that but we couldn't move? But if you do complain the EH powers are weak...

Its over now but it lasted about 3 years in the end, but it was a hard gritty fight to get peace. I am still recovering now. But.....

BUT BUT BUT we have Poles in our family we have, very very close Polish friends, our DC have polish and lithanian friends at school and we know their families!

In my head I know these people we have next door ( even though they had high turn over of lodgers all the same behaviour issues) that they are not representative of the whole nationality.

If I write or tell people about this experience I kind of expect them to also realise the same, but your right Lulme, one must try and always qualify what we write or say by saying this is personal experience of some people who happen to ...Polish, Lithanian etc.

Mouse I think your earlier posts about awful people in the street, mostly of Polish extraction, were self-explanatory and do not need you to qualify your statement by saying you have Poles in the family.

If a MNetter on here cannot extrapolate the meaning of what you said, then they have a comprehension problem.

Thanks Brit, but Lulume has a point, its in my head that I know they don't represent all Poles and eastern Europeans. One assumes other people also take it that way but one cant assume that.

I have mentioned my personal experience in the past and been garroted on here so I rarely mention it now.
But what it does mean, is that I have personal up close experience of what its like to live next to some people who do not follow our laws, and have no respect for them and who are sexist.

Well, Lumela I am first generation British and I have a sense of humour. I don't care if others want to stereotype my ethnic group. When they do, it is funny. And the reason stereotypes are funny is because there is an itsy bit of accuracy that we all recognise. A good comic or joke will nail it just right. The joke I posted was topical and I thought there was enough maturity on this thread to understand it.

The late, great Joan Rivers said that there was nothing off the menu that she would not joke about. I personally would never go to disability/deformity, for example. She even joked about 9/11 just a year after it happened.

I can see that you are over-compensating and trying very hard to right misunderstanding, but do you honestly think that being offended is so bad? I really do not have a problem with what others on here post, but you do. Just look at the 'essay' you wrote yesterday at 17:20 to another poster. You have taken on the role of a school mistress.

Notwithstanding MN guidelines, I get the sense that this thread has become the Lumela Thread, and it is she who allows or disallows postings. I have been offended by posts on here, but I do not report them because I am mature enough to either ignore or have it out with the poster. Don't put your over-sensitivity onto others, it is not right and it only encourages the provocateurs on here.

Comments are usually contextual and self-explanatory, but perhaps you would like it if we all prefaced our posts with a Disclaimer of some kind?

If a MNetter on here cannot extrapolate the meaning of what you said, then they have a comprehension problem.
Or they may wilfully misunderstand...

Or they may wilfully misunderstand...

^^ and it doesn't take much for some posters to grasp onto an ambiguous sentence and hang onto it. Indeed sometimes it strikes me thats all some posters on this thread wait for to do.

I get the sense that this thread has become the Lumela Thread, and it is she who allows or disallows postings

I disagree.

Most posters on here share the same goal and are reading from the same page. The problem is, as Lulema and others have said - its a very tricky subject and there are some posters on here who want nothing more than to stifle debate and close us down and write us all off as racists.

We want to keep talking about this subject and keep the thread going.

Comments are usually contextual and self-explanatory, but perhaps you would like it if we all prefaced our posts with a Disclaimer of some kind?

many posters do yes !! just look up thread.