Brexit: what would happen to EU citizens living in UK?

[marghini]

I am a EU citizen and I have been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for a while.

I am really concerned about what would happen to the EU citizens who built a life for themselves and settled here in the UK in case of a Brexit.

Do you think all EU citizens already living in the UK would be pushed out? Or perhaps the government would just stop allowing further EU immigration?

That's because the Vienna Convention, an international treaty, ensures that those who settled in another country - and that includes both the EU citizens settled in the UK and the UK citizens living in other EU countries - should be allowed to stay, if the UK decided to leave the EU.

Unfortunately, no serious legal commenters seem to think that the Vienna convention would apply.

@ Mistigri

Really? My reference was the BBC, I thought they would be somewhat reliable. I would love to see a reference to what you are saying. I have looked all over the internet for anyone saying that us leaving the EU would mean EU migrants having to leave, but have failed to find it. I found one reference that was unsure but talked about how one would apply for residency and citizenship (which my DH qualifies for but hasn't done yet). Nothing saying they thought it could happen though. This really annoys me because isn't this an important part of the whole thing?

This from what i have read is in the air and would hope to be sorted out in the two year notice period.

As people would need to know wether they can stay in EU or UK and apply for a visa or have to leave and reapply. These would all have to be processed and I guess we would have a big backlog as immigration would get overloaded.

I guess they could offer an amnesty but that could trigger a massive rush?

@Catherine

Legal opinion on applicability of Vienna Convention:

101r4q2bpyqyt92eg41tusmj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Could-EU-citizens-living-in-the-UK-claim-acquired-rights-if-there-is-a-full-Brexit.pdf

Discussion of the legal position of EU citizens in the UK:

eulawanalysis.blogspot.fr/2014/07/what-would-happen-to-eu-nationals.html

As we are gearing up for the referendum and in exactly 3 weeks the country will have voted out, a number of questions unravel.

1. Will Cameron remain as a PM? If so, to recoup his losses he will have to become more right-wing than Farage and take the most hardline approach in the exit negotiation. That will trigger a very acute response by the bloc that will coalesce around the UK exit in much the same way a lot of people are using EU expats - as a scapegoat.
2. If Cameron decides to retire, it will be Boris and again a more esoteric, inward looking outlook will prevail.
3. About the existing EU expats, I doubt there will be an expulsion edict or the like (unless the negotiations with the EU go so wrongly that the expats will become acceptable collateral damage). What will most likely happen is the those who can will be made to apply for ILR or similar, a process which along with the very negative perception, gradually developing in reservation and hostility will push a significant number of them to depart. Apart from the moral, legal, social and ethical arguments, they will be easily replaced by other expats from the commonwealth or wherever the UK decides to source manpower from.
4. About UK expats in Spain and other parts of Europe, I don't think they will be much influenced (unless there is a common directive from the EU) as the other countries in Europe don't really have a bone to pick with British folk per se.

WHY are people voting on an empty contract? Everyone sounds like confused blind bats, and falling for it.
And they look ridiculous not giving us the answers, you're Embarassing!
WE WANT ANSWERS RIGHT NOW. END OF.

I read that ILR fees are £1875, increase of £375 after 2015. So presumably will reach > £2k by early 2017. Will put plenty of folk off.

Sidelle, you are clearly seeing it it from your own perspective as it suits/doesn't suit your own personal situation rather than the global issue.

You wrote Go to london and try and get seen within 3 hours at a&e yet later mention the number of doctors coming from abroad. Indeed, number of A&E attendances have little to do with the issue of wait. The main pressures on A&E are older people who then need to be admitted into a bed, and the fact that that they struggle to discharge these old people, who often then need to go to care homes, or have their property adapted and end up blocking beds.

It's all fine having opinions, but not when you use nonfactual information. You talk about doctors, but what about nurses? Our local trust just recently hired a large group of nurses from Spain. They are doing a fantastic job. You can't pick and choose the same argument depending on how it impacts your personal situation. The NHS needs staff from abroad, but that has little to do with the increase of eu immigrants.

OK, let me ask everyone here about something that still mystifies me. A core argument has been that EU expats are putting strain on the NHS, Housing etc.

According to the most recent official data, there are about 3 million EU citizens resident in the UK, which has a total population of 65 million. That would in simple mathematics mean just a little over 4%. In addition, these 3 million have just relocated, but it the total sum from say 1992 at the very least and probably before then. I will not deny there has been a surge of people moving in, but can't see how 4% of the population has in a span of couple of years wrecked so much havoc in the aforementioned areas.

• A&E - Whenever I visiting one, a great proportion was to deal with intoxicated individuals the ambulances would simply bring them in:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3289220/24-hour-booze-mayhem-E-staff-paramedics-police-spend-quarter-time-dealing-drunks.html

• Housing: We spend more land in golf courses than building houses: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/11/uk-housing-golf-courses_n_4254512.html

I'm sure if you did have to leave there are plenty of other countries you could find work so it won't be that bad..

A&E is a lottery in London. Depends which area you go. I have had different experience of waiting time in several hospitals in the centre. But visiting a few A&E does not give the picture for all. There is nurse shortage but London is very expensive to live for the salary the nurses get.

I'm sure if you did have to leave there are plenty of other countries you could find work so it won't be that bad..

Indeed. Just like if your house was to set on fire and you had to then leave. It wouldn't be that bad, you can always find another... Seriously? OP has made a home here and is simply concerned that she will have to relocate. When you think about it, it's kinda ridiculous. I am originally from the north of England but now live in the south. I would be quite upset if I was suddenly told I had to move back to the north because I was no longer welcome. Leaving behind my friends, work and life...

According to the latest pronouncements, the likes of Gove and Johnson envisage the removal of significant elements of employment protection if we leave the EU. Lemme guess, maternity rights? Minimum pay? Job security?

According to the latest pronouncements, the likes of Gove and Johnson envisage the removal of significant elements of employment protection if we leave the EU. Lemme guess, maternity rights? Minimum pay? Job security?

This is what many of us have been saying off the bat.

To trade with Europe we will still have to sell, package, process, invoice etc all in the same way wether we in or out. So business costs will be pretty much unchanged, the only savings are as you say to cut those employment safe guards.

Very interesting topic on it's own. Twisted for me. I'm an EU citizen, living, working in the UK since 2008. My child was born here in 2011. He was then not entitled to be British as I have not been resident at the time. By my not wise, but purely blog knowledge he become entitled for British citizenship as soon as I became resident (5 years of unbroken stay and work) even without applying for resident card. If I now apply for a British passport for him, he (5-y-o) could stay but would I need to leave? I think I would need to apply for resident card first for him to get his British passport, and I assume as a holder of such, I would not be forced out. But who knows for sure, what the agreements will be like??
I'm sure it will be a long run, years of negotiations I would presume, but I would like to think that we will be asked to prove our right of residency and upon those details, we could remain. However another twist. My husband is a non-EU person who has applied for resident card as a spouse of an EEA-national. Would he be able to stay? Would Britain let us practise our human rights to stay together as husband and wife? At the moment, due to EU laws, it is our right but British law would require different actions. I'm very entrugued to see what will happen.

My guess is as good as anybody's on here on what Leave means. But should they win, I am certain that concrete plans will start shaping up. And above all, we will still have two years of unaffected EU membership going behind all the negotiations. So by 2018 we will have to see what have they agreed on. But my guess is, by 2020 (just in time for new elections) we will have a full separation from the EU. So more or less, 4 years of negotiations.

@Anik - Anecdotally, so you would need to double check your child will become eligible to UK citizenship at the age of 18.

@Joanna - you are referring to the activation of article 50 which stipulates up to 2 years for negotiating the exit. What you are saying suggest a common sense proposal, what I have seen given that the 'Out' vote cannot be defeated, scarcely indicates an organised way out. While of course I don't believe that they would start expelling people a lot of things will deepen on how much and how fast the prevailing sentiments of the 'Out' vote will seep into the government. Equally, the wider societal context which has already been dramatically transforming will become even further polarised.

Anik

If i were you I'd apply for the residency certificate. I'm am sorry to say it will not be easy to get answers, if you ring them up to ask you will get different answers. If you send them the money and they refuse they will keep it. Good luck and you'll have to ring more than once to get your true answer.
Even if your child was born in the uk it means nothing. You may have to pay £900 to make him a citizen first. You will have to do the life in uk test which isn't easy to become a citizen and do an English test even if you've been at school in the uk prior.

Many eu citizens have lived in the U.K. For over 20 yrs and still haven't become citizens. They will get their residency certificate showing they've lived 5 years. When you have received your residency certificate you may still have to wait a year before applying for citizenship, well that's what some of the advisers say!!!! Who knows? Just send them the money and keep your fingers crossed.

I am fully entitled for residency. I have all my payslips, P45's, proof of addresses etc to send. I have passed 5 years (+3.5 in fact) so there's no reason to reject. I was just never bothered as we, EU citizens automatically become residents (without applying for a card) after this period of time and I thought it was just waste of time and money. I'm pretty certain that I can sort this out during the negotiation period if UK ends up leaving the EU (which we don't know yet).
Strangemisfit - no, you are wrong I'm afraid. If my son was born 5 years after I came and started to work here (if I was already resident, in simple words), he then could have been straight away citizen. My friend's boy is, while her daughter who was born in Hungary, isn't. Even if I was not EU citizen, but he was born here, at the age of 10 he would be able to become British citizen. But different rules (atm) for EU citizens. So yes, he can already be citizen, I just need to put a passport application for him. As I said earlier, I might need to apply for resident card myself for him to be able to do that but I'm not sure.
For me it is the whole uncertainaty that stresses me out. I don't see the future and having lived here for more that 8 years I'm not sure what's next. I have nothing in Hungary. I have my job, my life, my friends and literally everything here. I can't imagine living anywhere else. And just to add to my worry. We have saved up already for mortgage and ready to buy our first home but right now we just need to wait and. I'm thrilled what the future may hold for us.

Re Brexit. My husband is French. We've been married for 2 years, together for 4. How would Brexit affect us? Anyone any idea?

Nobody knows at the moment rattlesnake. I'm in the same boat as you. Married to a Spaniard for 3 years, together for 8 years and we have two children.

Worst case scenario, your DH needs to apply for citizenship (which is a lengthy process and does cost money). This link gives you more information and this example that might be of interest to you:

Cecile is a French national. She has resided in the UK since 2002 as a worker; she found a job within weeks of arriving and has worked more or less continuously ever since, with a short break of a few weeks between jobs.
She automatically acquired the right of permanent residence in 2007, five years after she entered the UK. She never applied for a permanent residence certificate because she did not need to.
Worried about the possibility of the UK leaving the EU, she decides to naturalise as a British citizen. She applies for a permanent residence certificate in January 2016 and it is issued in March 2016. As soon as she has the permanent residence certificate, she is eligible to apply for naturalisation (assuming she meets the other criteria, such as good character). This is because she now has a permanent residence certificate and she has had permanent residence since 2007, which is more than the required 12 months.

The total cost is (I think, although don't quote me on it), is about £1,500.

Just to point out that getting British Citizenship is not straightforward.

You need to reside for 6 consecutive years and get an English Language certificate, a residence card and pass the Life in the UK tests. You have a max limit of days you can be outside the country each year to qualify for citizenship.

And most notably, you need to pay and wait. It took me over 1 year to get the citizenship paperwork done, and I have paid around £1200 in fees, and it is only getting more and more expensive and slow.

You do not get right to citizenship for being married or the parent of British citizens. I think you get a reduction on the years of residence, from 6 to 4 or something like that.

The citizenship process is constantly changing. It is actually quite stressful.

It looks like it's now £1500 for ILR plus a further £925 for naturalisation

I might sometimes complain about French bureaucracy, but it will cost me a fraction of that to naturalise here. It cost me precisely nothing to complete the registration process for my children's French citizenship.