Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

[Cellardoor1]

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

Attacked not attracted!

Frigging auto correct!

The account I read said the police had said that to the young woman who had been assaulted. Essentially nothing we can do, stay away from crowds. And Cologne railway station it seems! What a message to those thinking of visiting Cologne.

(Coincidentally I had suggested a rail tour in Germany this summer!)

!

I had thought about the way rioting is policed.Naughty boys , you mustn't attack property now!

You're probably right nosuchthing I'm just so disappointed that there is no discussion resembling the debate here going on there. I shouldn't be surprised really, I've known that forum for long enough but, bloody heck, what does it take for them to get angry?

I have found that when something awful happens close to you people do dismiss it as that is easier than the truth. There was a suspected Paedophile living in my street there was rumours that most condemned as rubbish even after his conviction certain neighbours still believe his innocence and still argue what a good guy he was. A women on Victoria Derbyshire show who only goes out in the day used one Arab man helping her with a buggy as a reason not to me scared, but her reality is it is probably better for her and her child to carry on as normal and for this she needs to believe Cologne is safe. Which it probably is in the day.

Igneococcus, I don't read any German parenting boards so have no idea what they are like. Very sad if there is no proper debate going on. I was however very pleasantly surprised by the discussion happening on a cosmetics forum I lurk on (I know, I know ). Very lively discussion, not dissimilar to this thread and only one properly weird minimizing poster.

igneococcus, it's outrageous, not one of the socalled feminists standing up. instead uncontradicted denials that anything ever happened (btw, MY Phone and tablet are Not able to write proper english, it just wrote Happyend. ..)
I am too tired to fight right now, but one should contradict soon, or others will join....

Wow, a police officer publicly admitting they've lost control. Unbelievable. Why even have a police force then? Are they just waiting for people to take the law into their own hands?
I'm very glad I don't live in Germany right now. Though to be fair, some of our police didn't do any better.

It would be so very nice if for once we could just have five minutes to discuss sexual violence against women in Germany without having the discussion hijacked to support an anti-immigration agenda. And without being accused of minimising or supporting the PC brigade or whatever the deal here is.

For context: according to the 2005 government study on the well-being, safety and health of women in Germany (the first representative study ever), 13% of the women interviewed in the study stated that they had experienced some form sexual violence, but only 8% of them went to the police. English summary

The Council of Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence has not been ratified by Germany because sexual assault and rape are defined as taking place only if force is used, violence is threatened or the victim is unprotected and at the mercy of the perpetrator. To put it bluntly, no doesn't mean no in Germany. No isn't enough - you have to prove force or helplessness.

Oh, and for those who speak German, here's an article about other public sexual assaults in Germany - only it's the Oktoberfest, so nobody can get worked up about immigration, so it's obviously not that big a deal.

Women's rights are constantly ignored and belittled - until it's convenient. Until they can be instrumentalised to make a point about immigration and Angela Merkel and fucking ISIS. And I would like this to stop, I would like the focus to be on women and the shit we have to put up with here.

It really would be very nice. But I'm not holding my breath.

Someone has now responded but it's always the same 4-5 posters and there are so many who deny and minimize and obfuscate.
A politically aware cosmetics board sounds interesting. :)

There is a leader in the Times Online today that has some worrying statistics. About 69 0/0 of immigrants coming through Europe are men, 13 o/o are women and the rest are unaccompanied minors, of which 90 o/o are male! The gender imbalance in Sweden because of this is worse than China. It's terrifying what this could mean for Europe. Large groups of men brought up in a culture that sees women as lesser beings are here with no partners or female children. What did they do to them? Leave them all to rot in a war zone? I despair of our politicians doing anything. I am of Indian descent, but my family and all my friends have integrated well and enjoy freedoms in this country. I'm afraid that these will be eroded. Ethnic minorities who have integrated well will suffer the most from this. Treated with suspicion by all.

"I have found that when something awful happens close to you people do dismiss it as that is easier than the truth."

I was just talking about this with my cousin. People just get on with their lives, as they have rent or mortgage to pay, jobs to do, etc. They have no time or inclination to challenge the status quo.

She lives in Berlin and says that there are new migrants everywhere dominating public spaces, especially trains, buses and train- or underground stations. Groups of 10-15 male immigrants loitering about. They are not allowed to work and understandably don't want to be confined to their asylum accommodation. They are very visible and have quite different manners. She told me about a very large group, maybe a family from Albania with about 8 or 10 members all spread around the train carriage shouting loudly to each other without any regard for other commuters, basically with very different manners to what people in Germany are used to.

I have empathy for these people, many live in poverty and are displaced, voluntarily or not. However it is quite clear that for a lot of these migrants their loyalty lie with their own kind and they prefer to move around, go shopping etc. in very large groups. Again, I get this because it is a sort of protection, isn't it? But Germans do not have the option of this kind of clan-based protection. They walk alone or in pairs / smaller groups en route to school or work and often feel uncomfortable in their own home town.

I do not understand how Merkel could invite more migrants without a clear European and German strategy. Luckily Sweden, Denmark and Austria are now closing their borders.

I think our way of life in Western Europe (not homogeneous I know) is threatened and I don't think our ways can be reclaimed because of the lack of political will. I think organising exams to fit in with Ramadan is a perfect example of this.

On a slightly different note, does anybody know why there are so many north African men in Germany? To what purpose? Why are they not in their home countries building them up, contributing? Are they persecuted there?

Nosuch To say "integration is not happening" is a blanket statement that doesn't reflect the reality of things and is also quite offensive to the many, many second or third generation immigrants who speak the language, are well educated, work and respect and share our liberal Western values Well, there's been some integration and that's good, but this is not the problem. No-one gives a monkey's about people who have accepted our ideas, fitted in and are using these ideas as a springboard to further advancement, creativity and general 'good'. These people are great. There's a lot to change in our society and some things I'd get rid of like a shot but when pitted against everything else, our ideas are better than other beliefs at the moment until someone comes up with something better (yes, they really, really are, for the relativists and constructionists out there) and I do not want to spend my time reinventing the wheel and telling flat-earthers that women are actually not on par with livestock and should not only be looking after children and never leaving the home. We've had enough problems moving forward with this over the past few centuries and still have a huge way to go! Read the statistics, with reference to Sweden, for example, over 70% of new arrivals will still be unemployed ten years after arriving in Sweden, over half of those surveyed do not agree with free speech, etc. etc. The 30% working is brilliant and great for all of us but what about the other 70%? So, hats off to the 30% but the 70% is unacceptably high.

For those people outraged by the victim-blaming ideology being exhibited in Germany, this is an well-used tactic by those in power who are unable to or do not want to change anything so they change the only thing that they can - the victim- who is already disempowered (by virtue of having been victimised) and thus malleable. They could, of course, make huge changes - they could change policy, law, infrastructure, physical environment, but this is a signal to us that they are not going to...so accept it.

uglyswan, i See your point and of course you are right, that womens rights are still not really self evident and there is discrimination, Sexism and harassment every Day.

but, and I think that makes some Kind of difference: i never heard of such an orchestrated, planned and deliberate assault before (in germany). that's what makes it more frightening and threatening for me, way more than the "normal" potential thread of harassment in dark corners and streets alone at night, which most women know (sadly!!!) from adolescence on. it's a different dimension, more evil somehow.

it's a different dimension, more evil somehow

Its because these men are striving to normalise this kind of behaviour, make it acceptable or at least unchallenged.

Those police comments are absolutely outrageous. I wonder if they would have said the same if it had been 1000 white men assaulting immigrants? No, thought not.

Where is the evidence from so many hysterical posters here that those committing the assaults were refugees or recent immigrants? The attacks sound terrifying, as does the inane responseof police and officials, but linking this to refugees and blanket statements like 'their culture is incompatible' is ridiculous.

How many people of African or Arabic origin do you think work in the NHS? Will you think them culturally incompatible when they are about to do a lifesaving operation on you?

I am not denying that some men have frightening and dangerous attitudes. I agree that the attacks are akin to a kind of terrorism. I don't know what most of the refugees coming to Europe will do in the future or how they will behave, but people leaving Syria often leave in families and come to Europe as a family unit. The families seem to comprise 60 per cent at the Serbian refugee camps. The lone men are not simply heartless people abandoning their families,that is very simplistic. Many of these people are not a threat. What happened in Cologne is alarming, but to conclude from the attacks that people from another culture cannot live compatibly with us is racist and false and a dangerous generalisation. Immigrants come from many places and do not have one culture. Muslims come from different places and culture differs from country to country.

thank you for replying NoSuch

My friend I believe feel the way you do and feels that they (Germans) are not being listened to when they are bringing up very reasonable concerns and they are being shouted down and accused of being right wing which many fear of being accused

It happens here too we should be able to discuss these issues and listen to those who bring up concerns regarding immigration, religion, culture clashes and so on and not shout them down as being DM readers

well said LunaLodbrok - I am very distressed by the tone of some of this discussion - the blanket generalizations. I think it can all be used for really sinister ends.

I think if it wasn't the latest refugees then the situation is even worse? Anyway since the police have admitted that they cannot identify any individuals we will never know who the culprits were.

lunalodbrok the evidence comes from the eyewitness accounts and reports of the victims. What other evidence would there be at this stage? Are you suggesting they're making it up?

And as for commenting about the cultures being incompatible, there is at least one poster who comes from that background who has said the same. They should have some insight, surely. Not to mention ,well documented (including actual footage on youtube) of similar incidents occuring in Egypt.

"But Germans do not have the option of this kind of clan-based protection. They walk alone or in pairs / smaller groups en route to school or work and often feel uncomfortable in their own home town."

And when I say 'Germans' I mean people who are settled in Germany, regardless of the ethnic or religious identity. My cousin's very good friend is originally from Algeria but has lived in Germany for many years and is raising her family there. This women also worries openly about the sheer number of recent immigrants and it affect their children's schooling, safety etc. It's not a great thing if groups of unemployed young men with no ties to the local community loiter about.

Luna, I would say that your post sounds rather hysterical (a rather old fashioned put down for women with an opinion). You appear not to have RTFT or maybe you didn't have the time to read carefully and understand. It's a bit rude of you to comment after nearly 800 posts by declaring us all hysterical and stupid.

Luna - yes calling posters 'hysterical' feels a bit Victorian man