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Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

999 replies

Cellardoor1 · 04/01/2016 22:20

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

OP posts:
Branleuse · 06/01/2016 12:58

good point

ABetaDad1 · 06/01/2016 12:58

Can I say it simpler.

This is about unchecked lawlessness due to years of police failure NOT immigrants seeking asylum.

The crime happened and women were targeted and that is undisputed.

Branleuse · 06/01/2016 13:00

the problem IS with men, isnt it.

Men with sexual urges and an entitlement complex is a dangerous mix, and it is a problem the whole world over

TheNewStatesman · 06/01/2016 13:00

Except that it seems to be worse in some areas than in others.

Don't you get it?

ABetaDad1 · 06/01/2016 13:02

I am saying the ethnicity does not matter or is at least a secondary or tertiary issue. It is the crime and the cause of that crime and the failure of policing that is most important and yet that has already been lost (just look at this thread) in the public debate.

DO WE CARE WHAT SKIN COLOUR A MAN HAS WHO SEXUALLY ASSAULTS A WOMAN, BLACK, WHITE OR BROWN OR DO WE CARE SHE WAS ASSAULTED?!

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 06/01/2016 13:03

Beta Dad, I don't understand why you are minimising in this way? Blaming it on police failure? On an overly excited crowd getting a bit carried away? Insisting it was random like that has any relevance anyway?

The fault doesn't lie with the police, although it sounds like they could have responded better. The fault lies with the men who cannot seem to think of women outside the Madonna / Whore categories.

Such thinking hasn't disappeared from the UK but it's more prevalent in certain Arab cultures. You seem to be denying that. I understand you don't want a backlash against those cultures. We don't either but for the love of god have some respect towards the women who have been attacked before you start minimising their experiences will you?

Ubik1 · 06/01/2016 13:04

It is a massive failure of policing. Sexual assaults occur in all countries but not on this scale. In such a public place.

The ethnicity/motivations of the perpetrators aside, the authorities should be reassuring women and children that they are safe to walk the city streets and use the train station.

And it's their job to deal with the problem. They should get on with it.

ABetaDad1 · 06/01/2016 13:05

Branleuse - yes to your last point. There is a complex cocktail of factors and it is not limited to Germany. I would not be in the least surprised if this started to happen elsewhere.

TheNewStatesman · 06/01/2016 13:06

As for all the fussing and fretting about "They are recent migrants!" "No, they aren't--they are second (or whatever) generation immigrants!".... Look, does it even matter? Whichever way it is, it's pretty much six of one and half a dozen on the other.

If they are recent migrants--well, that would suggest that "We can expect to see quite a bit more of this kind of thing in the near future."

If they are second-generation immigrantswell, that would suggest that "We can expect to see quite a bit more of this kind of thing in about 20 years' time. Oh, and as a bonus, it would appear that growing up in a Western society does not actually cause liberal values to be transmittedindeed, it may result in conservative minority populations becoming more conservative. What cheery news."

Either way, we are fucking screwed.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 06/01/2016 13:06

I call strawman. Don't call us racist! No one has said this is about skin colour, but about culture.

And yes we care about that deeply because those men have been affected by their culture just like violent men here have.

ABetaDad1 · 06/01/2016 13:08

Theydontknow - I have not said any of the things you accorded to me in your last post.

I am not apologising for any of it or minimising any of it. I am worried that the knee jerk reaction is missing the real reasons this happened and that without that proper reasoning it will happen again and that more women will be sexually assaulted.

uglyswan · 06/01/2016 13:12

To everyone outraged by the misogynist Muslim culture that gave rise to these attacks, can I just point out, once again, that groping a woman's body is not viewed as sexual assault under German law. I agree that there a horribly sexist views prevalant in a lot of Middle Eastern and Turkish culture. But German culture does absolutely nothing to counteract this and there is no point in relying on the police to handle sexual assault if there is no basis in German law for doing so. This is not a liberal, equal society being invaded by a bunch of Neanderthals that nobody can cope with adequately for fear of seeming racist. It is a profoundly sexist society confronted by an even more profoundly sexist fringe.

hiddenhome2 · 06/01/2016 13:14

I don't know what the gender equivalent of ethnic cleansing is, but if females are pushed out of public spaces then this is a form of gender cleansing Sad

If a group of people started forcing, say Jewish or gay people, out of public spaces there'd be hell on Angry

The world has gone mad.

Are we going to end up like Saudi Arabia? Hmm

OTheHugeManatee · 06/01/2016 13:15

It is a massive failure of policing. Sexual assaults occur in all countries but not on this scale. In such a public place.

TBH I think this is looking at it backwards. Objectively speaking, there aren't enough police in any Western country to force people to obey the law. Rather, the majority of people obey the law because they've been raised to do so and to believe that most laws are broadly correct. If enough people decide that a law is ridiculous and start to flout it, there is little that the police can do. Usually what happens in those situations is that eventually the law gets changed until it reflects majority public opinion again, or just disregarded as unenforceable by the authorities.

The authorities police by consent and are very aware of this. It's entirely back to front to say the police have failed because a sufficiently large group of people are refusing to consent to being policed.

What we are seeing is mass civil disobedience. A refusal to abide by, or consent to being policed on, Western laws around assault, sexual harassment and gender equality. If we don't ditch the mimsy apologetic 'all cultures are equal' business and come down hard in favour of our values, with the force of law, public opinion and the police, we might as well accept that women's equality was a flash in the pan and we're drifting steadily back to headscarves and being chained to the kitchen sink.

ABetaDad1 · 06/01/2016 13:16

ugly - I worked for a German company and I totally agree with you. Germany has a deeply sexist culture among white men.

It is deeply engrained. There were virtually no women in the company above the age of 30. They were expected to be in the home looking after children.

This is a huge very well known German company and I found the contrast even by the low standards of the UK to be very stark.

BarbarianMum · 06/01/2016 13:16
polentapies · 06/01/2016 13:19

Just back and glad to see lots of posts

Not sure if this has been posted but it's worth a read

New Statesman

Off to read thread

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 06/01/2016 13:21

Then I apologise Beta Dad, I'm sure we want the same things - for this kind of thing to be stopped but we see the root causes as different.

MamaMary · 06/01/2016 13:30

Do we really believe that id hundreds of N. African ME men all communicated with each other and agree to meet in one place with a pre-determined plan to sexually assault women? Like a flash mob?

Yes, we do.

You are really failing to grasp what happened here.

uglyswan · 06/01/2016 13:30

Yes, Barbarian, my jaw did that and more when this was explained to me - by a German lawyer. If someone grabs your breasts and you slap him, you will be found guilty of assault, not him. If someone harasses and catcalls you and you flip him off, you will be found guilty of defamation, not (as long as he doesn't actually call you names that are commonly held to be insulting) him.

BarbarianMum · 06/01/2016 13:31
Natailya · 06/01/2016 13:32

ABetaDad1 P u r l e a s e ! You are now wilfully being stupid by saying:
I am saying the ethnicity does not matter or is at least a secondary or tertiary issue. It is the failure of policing that is most important and yet that has already been lost.

If a crowd of 400 white men of all nationalities descended and targeted Asian women celebrating Diwali in the street they would be coshed to the ground by any Asian man seeing this happen. And our version of SWAT (or SPLAT more like) would be there in a sec. Get real, man.

Pinkchampchoccies · 06/01/2016 13:34

"here were virtually no women in the company above the age of 30. They were expected to be in the home looking after children."
Come off it Beta. I have worked for large German companies too. My office was packed with competent, highly educated, confident women, some of whom were mothers too. There were a few strong women on the board, too. Admittedly, there could have been more female leaders but you are exaggerating.

"This is about unchecked lawlessness due to years of police failure NOT immigrants seeking asylum."

Nope, this is about unchecked lawlessness, possibly due to years of police failure and about groups of ethnic men who despise women as part of their cultural conditioning. I think you are pretending to paint a complex picture but you are actually thinking rigidly and in black and white, absolute terms not surprisingly if you support UKIP.

BungoWomble · 06/01/2016 13:38

Can we go back to something someone said a long way upthread? We should all be hitting the streets to complain and 'reclaim the night' about this and male harassment of women generally. We need to get our voices heard, to be taken seriously. Does anyone know of any group organising anything? If not how can we start to? I don't use facebook or twitter, and I'm not the only one, can someone post these things on to the open web please?

Women at least need to support each other. I hope everyone on this thread will try their level best now to support another girl/ woman getting harassment out in public (yes I know it's difficult against any number, let alone 1000) if it's only to run round the corner and call the police.

Pinkchampchoccies · 06/01/2016 13:38

"If someone grabs your breasts and you slap him, you will be found guilty of assault, not him. If someone harasses and catcalls you and you flip him off, you will be found guilty of defamation, not (as long as he doesn't actually call you names that are commonly held to be insulting) him."

I am also shocked by this and was unaware. It appears that the vents in Cologne present a perfect window of opportunity to challenge the lack of laws protecting women.