Metrojet accident over Sinai

[DoctorFunkenstein]

I don't think there is a thread?

I will be having various moments of silence today as I think about the people who so sadly lost their lives.

Russia has a day of mourning. I think it would be nice if we spared a thought.

and btw - no idea yet what happened, professional opinion seems to be leaning towards structural break up mid air, but we will have to wait and see. Other airlines are avoiding the area as a precaution until we know more.

'Well, they would, wouldn't they?'

Have you seen the evidence of where the Dutch say it was fired from?
Have you got a link to the evidence?

I'm going going to argue with you Claig, I know you love your conspiracy theories.

I think, var123, that when you are queueing to get your loved ones out of an airport where an act of terrorism has just cost the lives of many people that embarrassment at being a few days late for school will be the last thing on their mind. Besides, they may not have been missing 3 days of school - our local authority adds 2 inset days to the autumn half term, and flights were held back from Sharm earlier in the week.

'I know you love your conspiracy theories'

I don't like conspiracies. I don't like that we were lied to over weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in order to enter a war that killed hundreds of thousands and ultimately led to the rise of terrorist groups like Isis.

We are often told lies in order to justify policies that suit bankers and rich billionaires. I like to see the evidence before I decide what to believe.

This is what the Dutch investigators said about where they found that it was fired from

"The 15-month Dutch investigation blamed a Soviet-made surface-to-air Buk missile for downing the Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flight, but it did not explicitly say who had fired it. It identified an area of 320 square kilometers (120 square miles) where it said the launch must have taken place, and all of the land was in the hands of pro-Russian separatists fighting Ukrainian forces at the time of the disaster, according to daily maps of fighting released by the Ukrainian National Security Council."

www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/10/13/russian-missile-maker-contradicts-dutch-mh17-crash-report

"It identified an area of 320 square kilometers (120 square miles) where it said the launch must have taken place"

"and all of the land was in the hands of pro-Russian separatists fighting Ukrainian forces at the time of the disaster, according to daily maps of fighting released by the Ukrainian National Security Council"

According to the Ukrainians. I guess we should take their word for it.

This was, and I admit it wasn't clear from the off, intended to be a thread where we could express our sorrow at what had taken place.

I think if it'll become a place where we get into detailed political argument, perhaps it's best I ask for it to be deleted.

Whatever the cause and the outcome, people have died, among them 24 or 25 children (I am not sure - I am aware that at least one passenger was pregnant also).

Can I ask, respectfully, that it doesn't turn into a fight?

Thanks.

I heard on radio this evening that the fact that ISIL claimed responsibility for this straight away, yet refused to say how they did it, means they still have the capability to do it again in the immediate future and they don't want to lose it yet. Because once they tell the world how they did it, they lose that option when security adapts to quash it.

UK Government have done exactly the right thing here.

There is a report on a US based website which is pointing the finger at Saudi Arabia. I won't link to it as I can't yet find independent corroborrative evidence other than some circumstantial. They did raise some really interesting points; how is the mobile phone footage so detailed, especially as the plane was at over 9000m? How did they know where and when to point the camera? Where did this Daesh squadron go?

Anybody who believes the Dutch report might like to Google 'deleted bbc video MH17' which has eyewitness accounts not long after it happened.

Wow Doctor I hadn't seen that deleted BBC report before. I don't get it, are people saying that Russian fighter jets shot MH17 down, or that Ukranian ones did? Or that a missile was aimed at a fighter jet which was using the Boeing as a shield??

' I don't get it, are people saying that Russian fighter jets shot MH17 down'

No one is saying that Russian jets did it. The Ukrainians are saying that the Russian separatists fired a BUK missile and did it. The Russian separatists say they haven't got any BUKs and aren't trained to use them and claim that the Ukrainians either fired an old version of a BUK (no longer used by the Russians) or that UKrainian jets shot it down.

The Dutch investigation has no answer as to who shot it down but they say a BUK missile was used and that it was fired from Russian separatist held territory, but the Russian BUK missile company has done a simulation using a BUK to shoot down an old airliner and said that it was an old BUK version fired from Ukrainian held territory.

So why would Ukranian jets want to shoot down a Malaysian passenger plane?

After the plane was shot down, the US got Europe to impose heavier sanctions on Russia, so Russia had nothing to gain by doing it and everything to lose. Therefore the theory is that the separatists did it rather than Russia and that it was a mistake since they had nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing it.

The Russians say that the Ukrainians stood to gain and they were the ones who did it.

'So why would Ukranian jets want to shoot down a Malaysian passenger plane?'

The theory is that these type of events are known as 'false flags' where one side carries out an action and blames it on the other side who get the blame and the repercussions e.g. sanctions or even possibly war.

Very often wars are started by 'false flags' which are used as justification for a war. The Vietnam war was started by the Gulf of Tonkin 'false flag'

"De-classified Vietnam-era Transcripts Show Senators Knew Gulf Of Tonkin Was A Staged False Flag Event
...
Four years into the war, senators were at loggerheads with Lyndon B. Johnson. At the time Foreign Relations Committee meetings were held behind closed doors.

It would take over thirty years for the truth to emerge that the Aug. 4, 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats – an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war – was a staged event that never actually took place."

de-classified-vietnam-era-transcripts-show-senators-knew-gulf-of-tonkin-was-a-staged-false-flag-event

The Malaysian MH17 plane was the second Malaysian plane to be shot down or disappear within a short space of time. The odds of that happening are very small indeed. There are conspiracy theories that suggest why that might have been.

Sorry, corrected link to the Gulf of Tonkin false flag article

www.infowars.com/de-classified-vietnam-era-transcripts-show-senators-knew-gulf-of-tonkin-was-a-staged-false-flag-event/

Sorry OP, I realise you don't want this thread to turn into a discussion on these other issues. Perhaps we should start a separate one.

So much has happened since I made my post. Forgive me, trying to catch up.

"I am actually a bit surprised that in this day and age, we can not know what happened, IYSWIM. I was surprised with MH370 as well. We're expecting to fly to Oz in 4 hours in the next decade, but we can't tell how an airliner came down...I dunno, it just surprises me. To be clear, I'm not having a go at anyone, it's just interesting."

We will find out what happened to this aircraft. But you can't find out immediately. The expectations of the public and the press to know immediately simply can't be met. This is real life, I'm afraid. It can take days, weeks months or years to know as you have to piece every individual bit of evidence together. The bomb theory seems to have a lot of credibility and evidence we aren't privy to. MH370 was very different. In that case an experienced pilot seems to have deliberately done everything to hide what was happening. He was very successful.

As for the various posts from claig about MH17, there are photos all over the place of a Russian-operated - not Ukrainian - BUK missile launcher inside that zone. It was clearly being driven and operated by Russian forces. It was photographed by journalists days before the incident with its full complement of missiles. It was photographed by journalists the day after with one of the missiles missing form the magazine. I would also add that the Dutch investigative team either will have, or will, corroborate what territory was held by whom at the time. There are also the intercepted (by Western agencise) communications between the Russian-backed troops on the ground and their commanders that clearly show the former initially celebrating having shot down an aircraft that they believe to be a Ukrainian Antonov and shortly after additional comms indicating a slowly dawning realisation about what they had actually managed to shoot down, including disbelief that normal civil ops continued over a war zone. So I'm pretty convinced.

But that is very much off topic.

I personally know people in the DfT's Avuiation Security branch. They would not have taken the steps that they did in Sharm without compelling evidence. What I still can't really comprehend is why people think that going on holiday to a resort that abuts a war zone is a good idea.

'there are photos all over the place of a Russian-operated - not Ukrainian - BUK missile launcher'

This is off topic but it is not a photo of "Russian operated", it is a photo of a BUK missile launcher (with a missile missing). Google it and the tapes for claims that the tapes are fake etc.