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The Greek debt crisis....why?

999 replies

InDespair · 27/06/2015 17:24

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

OP posts:
squidzin · 29/06/2015 15:57

Rational economic facts can prove Milton Freeman right.
And other can prove him wrong.

In politics 80% of fact is made up.

All countries run on a deficit. All businesses run on deficit, at least to begin with. It's how cash flow works.

squidzin · 29/06/2015 16:00

Milton Friedman (auto phone) i mean.
Who is wrong about everything.

Nonreplicable · 29/06/2015 16:16

Gemauve, I will have a go at trying to explain the downward slope of the yield curve I distressed debt situations, see if it makes sense. No derivatives knowledge required.

Let's say that we have a 1-year bond and a 10-year bond issued by the same country, worth 100 cents each. In a normal environment both bonds will trade around 100 cents and the yield of the 1-year bond will be lower because it is less risky. So we have an upward sloping curve.

As a default situation evolves, the market starts to price in restructuring scenarios. In your simplest form, in a restructuring you would lump all the debt together and write off a proportion of it. Let's say we are writing down 50%.

So our two bonds we now think are probably worth 50 cents but as they have not been restructured yet, one is still 50 cents in 1 year and the other one is 50 cents in 10 years.

Because of the way bond maths work you would need to use a much higher discount rate (I.e. Yield) to get to 50 cents valuation for the 1-year bond. So you end up with a downward sloping curve.

Hope this makes sense. Or I may be explaining it wrong, happy to listen if someone has a better way.

juliascurr · 29/06/2015 17:42

interesting article supporting Syriza:

www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-referendum-troika-eurozone-by-joseph-e--stiglitz-2015-06

nothing to add, really

Hullygully · 29/06/2015 17:55

yy. Zoe Williams in today's Grauniad good too.

And John Humprhys in Sunday's Times

Hullygully · 29/06/2015 18:32

www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

This very good too

BubaMarra · 29/06/2015 18:58

Isitmebut, I don't see a point you are trying to make in your reply to a section of my post TBH.

Yes, pre crisis investors were searching for extra as you put it, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. They were trying to make extra money by entering extremely risky investments turning a blind eye to something that was bleeding obvious. It was gambling. Stupid decisions made based on nothing sensible. But as the pre crisis world was flushed with money, noone cared, it was all nice and dandy. But when reality hit hard with mortgage crisis and lehmans default, etc we all all of a sudden realised how horrible those decisions were. We all realise that no, Greece cannot be trusted to repay its debt with the same probability as some other european countries, gosh how could anyone beleive that in the first place Hmm. And now IMF and EU are borrowing them more money to repay the gambling game they all (greece and investors) played previously.

And yes, there ARE European countries whose debt investors are buying right now because of their fiscal position. Just that their debt doesn't offer any extra (on the contrary!)

Your last paragraph sounds a bit Confused TBH. You do realise that there is a bond indenture when an issuer issues bonds, which is a contractual obligation?

My point is that we are not going to learn anything from this horrible episode that begun 8 years ago if we are going to blame ONLY Greece (in this case). Yes, Greeks are easy target for daily mail type media hype as they are scroungers who try to live off german's (or whoever's) tax payers money, etc. But reality is always a bit more complex than that and the sooner we realise that, the sooner we as a society (and economy) are going to learn lessons for the future from all this crap. Otherwise we are just going to go through similar cycles every now and then.

MoustacheofRonSwanson · 29/06/2015 19:23

Great post BubaMara

And CoteDAzur, the ability to look at situation without any emotions or empathy for the people involved in it is a feature of sociopathy. You might want to consider that.

WorktoLive · 29/06/2015 19:58

Greece has been like someone who constantly borrows money to pay for a lifestyle they cannot afford, partly because tax evasion is the norm and the time has come where no-one else will lend them any money and all their money is taken up with debt repayments.

I remember reading a few years ago that only a few hundred people in Athens paid the tax that was due on having a swimming pool, but when the authorities started looking on Google Earth, they could see that there were over ten thousand of them.

People who declare an income of a few thousand Euros, were driving luxury cars.

Many people could retire on a full pension at 50, because they worked in 'industry that used dangerous chemicals' such as hairdressing.

A lifestyle that is simply not affordable on the taxes received.

If Greece leaves the Euro, it's new currency will be massively devalued, which will make imports, such as medicines mentioned upthread, very expensive.

It might be good for tourism, because lots of richer northern Europeans will go there on holiday.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 20:14

"This is not one of my many strong subjects."

Such modesty Grin

"My strong subject is conspiracy theory"

Yes, we know. Except that it is not a subject but a paranoid tendency Smile

DoctorTwo · 29/06/2015 20:23

You know the vast majority of the 'money' used for bail outs goes to save the German and French banks? In a capitalist society the banks would be allowed to fail, but we don't have capitalism, we have something which can be described as corporate socialism, rescue for the corporations and damnation for the majority.

I hope the Greeks vote No on Sunday, it might just mean the end of BNP and Deutsche Bank, the most over leveraged bank in the world.

Stiglitz is right, more austerity will cause depression, it's ridiculous to argue otherwise against the evidence. And I trust him over yesitsyouofcourseitis as Stiglitz is a Nobel laureate. Steve Keen and others are also saying the same thing, namely that neotardism is going to cause another crash.

Bank Of International Settlement says we're fucked because of, not despite, central banks.

All assets except gold and silver are in a bubble, says Michael Pento.

When Greece defaults, something it should've done 5 years ago, markets are going to crash, except in commodities. Gold, silver and crypto are at least safe havens, as in you own them unlike what is in your bank account, which is the property of the bank.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 20:24

"the ability to look at situation without any emotions or empathy for the people involved in it is a feature of sociopathy"

Thanks for that Hmm

What I said was "your views on Greece's situation appear to be BASED ON emotions rather than an objective understanding and analysis of their economy. I didn't say "have no empathy whatsoever".

To take a page from your book, the tendency to read a sentence and completely misrepresent it is a feature of both intellectual dishonesty and underlying problems with English comprehension. "You might want to consider that."

Now, if you are done with ankle biting, maybe you would like to contribute something to the thread.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 20:39

"pre crisis investors were searching for extra as you put it, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. They were trying to make extra money by entering extremely risky investments turning a blind eye to something that was bleeding obvious."

If it was that obvious, you must have made a fortune betting that the crisis would happen. This is a complete misrepresentation of how and why the subprime credit crisis happened.

The institutional (professional) investors I assume you are referring to don't only make high-risk investments. The money they earn depends to a large degree on the performance of their funds under management compared to a benchmark. Their risk profile is analysed and plotted in detail, and investments made accordingly.

Even funds that don't have benchmarks and leverage to a significant level don't just make insanely high-risk investments. I hope you realise that all these fund managers have is their reputation and if they lose a large chunk of their fund because a high-risk investment goes belly up, then they can do nothing else in this business.

The problem that triggered the financial crisis wasn't that bankers in general and institutional investors in particular were feckless idiots, but that US regulations of the time made it possible for junk grade bonds and mortgages to be amalgamated and sold into various vehicles until it was no longer possible to determine and analyse the risk profile of the underlying assets. When investors bought into these funds, they did not (COULD NOT) know the dubious status of mortgages that were bundled into a fund which was then bundled into a fund of funds etc.

Hullygully · 29/06/2015 20:50

What does interest me is that clearly five years of austerity have made Greece's situation worse (see figures in articles above).

Equally clearly more of the same will be even worse still.

Yet the troika insist upon it, sticking their fingers in their ears and closing their eyes and going lalalalalalalala.

Why is that? I don't understand this denial of reality and plain facts.

Doesn't it make more sense to look at the reality of a situation and come up with solutions that might actually work?

I do find this genuinely baffling. Unless it is purely political or oil/gas conspiracy it simply doesn't make sense

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 21:13

"clearly five years of austerity have made Greece's situation worse"

Has it?

Exports increased 19% in EUR terms while imports decreased by 12%, leading to a 34% lower deficit. (Source: Balance of Goods link on Bank of Greece website). Capital Account Balance improved by 24% (Source: Bank of Greece). External debt is in much better shape now, with much of short term debt restructured to very long-term obligations (Source: Bank of Greece). Even their Reserve Assets are 10% higher now than they were 5 years ago (Source: Again, Bank of Greece).

So how exactly is Greece's situation worse now than it was 5 years ago?

Viviennemary · 29/06/2015 21:32

I like the Greek people and I don't think they are to blame for this mess. But honestly the cheek of their politicians is amazing. They just seem to be dodging all the time. France and Germany want their money back and they won't get it back if Greece goes back to the Drachma. So it's in their interests to keep Greece in the Euro. Difficult to know what is best for Greece in the long term.

WhattodowithMum · 29/06/2015 21:36

A short, plainly written article by Paul Krugman (nobel winning, left leaning economist) explaining why it would be rational for Greece to default.

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html?_r=0

caroldecker · 29/06/2015 21:37

But the gas is methane hydrate, which no-one knows how to expolit and, if they do learn, Greece has a lot less than many other countries, so worth very little.
Asuterity was working, with Greece having the fastest growing economy and with a budget surplus prior to interest payments before the current nutters took over.
The IMF will also not lend to Greece, as it a payment to the IMF that is due tomorrow.

MoustacheofRonSwanson · 29/06/2015 21:42

CoteDAzur

You focus only on financial figures and have no regard whatsoever for the impact on actual people's lives, turning them only into contributors to a balance sheet. It does not matter whether actions drive people to suicide, or make people homeless or destitute. The only factor that is valid is the contribution to the balance sheet.

You treat this situation as an abstract analysis. It is not. This situation has fundamental impacts on people's lives.

That level of detachment is not "objectivity". It is selectively deciding which factors and circumstances are valid considerations based on your own opinions, values, experiences and judgements. It is about arbitrary (and emotional) decisions on what factors should be taken into consideration and what should be dismissed as a mere "emotional" concern. And it is about hiding those emotional value judgements behind "objectivity" and pretending that somehow your emotional value judgements are different from other people's- that is either lying to others and yourself or self-aggrandisement to the point of deity.

You do not take into account the historical and political realities that have contributed to complex situation (i.e. the shortcoming of the modern democratic process itself, the democratic/accountability deficit in the EU and other international institutions, the installation of a government the greek people didn't want after WW11 and the subsequent lasting impact that has had on greek politics). No, the only factors that matter are a narrowly defined view of economics and a skewed interpretation of the law insofar as it fits that narrow economic view (for example, the contract a government signs with a lender must be honoured, even if that means it must chose to break contracts it has signed with employees) .

You speak about economics as if it is a hard science when it is not. This is intellectually dishonest.

But then, if you had any intellectual honesty or academic rigour you would also understand what a hollow concept "objectivity" is.

You are as emotionally invested in your own worldview as anyone else is. the difference is some people recognise that, and also recognise that emotions are a valid part of the human experience and therefore in human decision making.

Hullygully · 29/06/2015 22:18

Those figures are directly at odds with most others on the situation, Cote.

Stiglitz:
The rising crescendo of bickering and acrimony within Europe might seem to outsiders to be the inevitable result of the bitter endgame playing out between Greece and its creditors. In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics.
Of course, the economics behind the program that the “troika” (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country’s GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece’s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%.

It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe’s leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5% of GDP by 2018.
Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece’s debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika’s target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend.
In terms of transforming a large primary deficit into a surplus, few countries have accomplished anything like what the Greeks have achieved in the last five years. And, though the cost in terms of human suffering has been extremely high, the Greek government’s recent proposals went a long way toward meeting its creditors’ demands.
We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries’ banking systems. The IMF and the other “official” creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.
But, again, it’s not about the money. It’s about using “deadlines” to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable – not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies.
But why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and refusing even to extend by a few days the June 30 deadline for Greece’s next payment to the IMF? Isn’t Europe all about democracy?
In January, Greece’s citizens voted for a government committed to ending austerity. If the government were simply fulfilling its campaign promises, it would already have rejected the proposal. But it wanted to give Greeks a chance to weigh in on this issue, so critical for their country’s future wellbeing.
That concern for popular legitimacy is incompatible with the politics of the eurozone, which was never a very democratic project. Most of its members’ governments did not seek their people’s approval to turn over their monetary sovereignty to the ECB. When Sweden’s did, Swedes said no. They understood that unemployment would rise if the country’s monetary policy were set by a central bank that focused single-mindedly on inflation (and also that there would be insufficient attention to financial stability). The economy would suffer, because the economic model underlying the eurozone was predicated on power relationships that disadvantaged workers.
And, sure enough, what we are seeing now, 16 years after the eurozone institutionalized those relationships, is the antithesis of democracy: Many European leaders want to see the end of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s leftist government. After all, it is extremely inconvenient to have in Greece a government that is so opposed to the types of policies that have done so much to increase inequality in so many advanced countries, and that is so committed to curbing the unbridled power of wealth. They seem to believe that they can eventually bring down the Greek government by bullying it into accepting an agreement that contravenes its mandate.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 22:40

"France and Germany want their money back and they won't get it back if Greece goes back to the Drachma."

Not true. Greek bonds denominated in EUR will be repaid in EUR, regardless of whether or not Greece changes its currency in the future.

Assuming Greece actually owns up to paying it back, of course.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 23:01

Hully - re "Those figures are directly at odds with most others on the situation, Cote"

Then those "most others" are wrong. The figures I linked to are from the website of the Bank of Greece.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2015 23:14

Moustache - I'm not sure what your point is in that long post but I have studied this stuff and worked as an analyst for many years, so yes, I do have
an objective understanding of what is actually going on re the macroeconomy and external debt situation of Greece.

Having grown up in a country with a weak economy with large foreign debt and high inflation, I have personal experience and understanding of what this means for the people.

Yes, it will be very tough for Greeks for a long time. The way out isn't through sticking their heads in the sand and singing tralalalalala, though. Leaving Eurozone would make it easier for them to get their economy back on track through appropriate monetary policies (printing money, raising interest rates, etc). If not, the best option available to them is fiscal policy - spending less ('austerity') and collecting significantly more taxes.

This is Econ 101. I'm not saying anything terribly difficult or remotely controversial here.

Gemauve · 29/06/2015 23:30

Greek bonds denominated in EUR will be repaid in EUR

Would such paper because, wait for it, EuroEuros (by extension of Eurodollars and Euroyen)?

Gemauve · 29/06/2015 23:30

become, not because