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The Greek debt crisis....why?

999 replies

InDespair · 27/06/2015 17:24

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

OP posts:
Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 14:39

gemauve ~ I am not so sure... please elaborate.

Obligations to “official” creditors such as the IMF, the ECB and the governments of other European economies account for the vast majority of Greece’s $500 billion worth of external debt, so these institutions would bear the brunt of foreign losses from a Greek default. Foreign bank exposure to Greece totals only $46 billion, which is widely dispersed among countries, so the direct effects of Grexit on the private sector in other countries should be manageable, at least in theory. Of course, financial markets may react negatively if Greece were indeed to leave the Eurozone, and we worry that contagion could spread to other European countries.

Read more: uk.businessinsider.com/grexit-if-greece-leaves-the-euro-2015-2#ixzz3ek0aDyt7

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 14:41

Hully the debts will not go away with the EU or without.
It is almost certainly going to be some level of write off somewhere along the line...but Greece will have to pay huge sums to get any sort of credit in the future. It will really will be starting from the beginning...

WhattodowithMum · 02/07/2015 14:43

Iceland and Argentine have bounced back nicely after defaults. Perhaps Greece should have defaulted at the start.

Hullygully · 02/07/2015 14:54

Yet more good arguments for restructuring:

Sixty years ago today, an agreement was reached in London to cancel half of postwar Germany's debt. That cancellation, and the way it was done, was vital to the reconstruction of Europe from war. It stands in marked contrast to the suffering being inflicted on European people today in the name of debt.

Germany emerged from the second world war still owing debt that originated with the first world war: the reparations imposed on the country following the Versailles peace conference in 1919. Many, including John Maynard Keynes, argued that these unpayable debts and the economic policies they entailed led to the rise of the Nazis and the second world war.

By 1953, Germany also had debts based on reconstruction loans made immediately after the end of the second world war. Germany's creditors included Greece and Spain, Pakistan and Egypt, as well as the US, UK and France.

German debts were well below the levels seen in Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain today, making up around a quarter of national income. But even at this level, there was serious concern that debt payments would use up precious foreign currency earnings and endanger reconstruction.

Needing a strong West Germany as a bulwark against communism, the country's creditors came together in London and showed that they understood how you help a country that you want to recover from devastation. It showed they also understood that debt can never be seen as the responsibility of the debtor alone. Countries such as Greece willingly took part in a deal to help create a stable and prosperous western Europe, despite the war crimes that German occupiers had inflicted just a few years before.

The debt cancellation for Germany was swift, taking place in advance of an actual crisis. Germany was given large cancellation of 50% of its debt. The deal covered all debts, including those owed by the private sector and even individuals. It also covered all creditors. No one was allowed to "hold out" and extract greater profits than anyone else. Any problems would be dealt with by negotiations between equals rather than through sanctions or the imposition of undemocratic policies.

Perhaps the most innovative feature of the London agreement was a clause that said West Germany should only pay for debts out of its trade surplus, and any repayments were limited to 3% of exports earnings every year. This meant those countries that were owed debt had to buy West German exports in order to be paid. It meant West Germany would only pay from genuine earnings, without recourse to new loans. And it meant Germany's creditors had an interest in the country growing and its economy thriving.

Following the London deal, West Germany experienced an "economic miracle", with the debt problem resolved and years of economic growth. The medicine doled out to heavily indebted countries over the last 30 years could not be more different. Instead, the practice since the early 1980s has been to bail out reckless lenders through giving new loans, while forcing governments to implement austerity and free-market liberalisation to become "more competitive".

As a result of this, from Latin America and Africa in the 80s and 90s to Greece, Ireland and Spain today, poverty has increased and inequality soared. In Africa in the 80s and 90s, the number of people living in extreme poverty increased by 125 million, while economies shrank. In Greece today, the economy has shrunk by more than 20%, while one in two young people are unemployed. In both cases, debt ballooned.

The priority of an indebted government today is to repay its debts, whatever the amount of the budget these repayments consume. In contrast to the 3% limit on German debt payments, today the IMF and World Bank regard debt payments of up to 15-25% of export revenues as being "sustainable" for impoverished countries. The Greek government's foreign debt payments are around 30% of exports.

When debts have been "restructured", they are only a portion of the total debts owed, with only willing creditors participating. In 2012, only Greece's private creditors had debt reduced. Creditors that held British or Swiss law debt were also able to "hold out" against the restructuring, and will doubtless pursue Greece for many years to come.

The "strategy" in Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain today is to put the burden of adjustment solely on the debtor country to make its economy more competitive through mass unemployment and wage cuts. But without creditors like Germany willing to buy more of their exports, this will not happen, bringing pain without end.

The German debt deal was a key element of recovering from the devastation of the second world war. In Europe today, debt is tearing up the social fabric. Outside Europe, heavily indebted countries are still treated to a package of austerity and "restructuring" measures. Pakistan, the Philippines, El Salvador and Jamaica are all spending between 10 and 20% of export revenues on government foreign debt payments, and this doesn't include debt payments by the private sector.

If we had no evidence of how to solve a debt crisis equitably, we could perhaps regard the policies of Europe's leaders as misguided. But we have the positive example of Germany 60 years ago, and the devastating example of the Latin American debt crisis 30 years ago. The actions of Europe's leaders are nothing short of criminal.

Isitmebut · 02/07/2015 15:03

Arguably it does looks like a good argument for the restructering; not the re-re-re-re and restructering.

And with the Germany thing, with massive Bundesbank anti inflationary belt tightening since the 2ndWW and 'austerity' costs financing East Germany after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Greece is likely to be offered terms AFTER the 'in' or 'out' referendum on Sunday - but not if those Marxist bottom wipes in charge, as there appears not to be many successful Marxist bottom wipe States.

Isitmebut · 02/07/2015 15:10

P.S. Are you seriously comparing the hardship of the German's after the Second World War with those of the Greek people now?

To my mind that is like saying child poverty in the UK is the same as in Chad.

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 15:14

Quite a lot of Eurocentricism - even now - around the Greece situation.

The question that is preoccupying (maybe I could have chosen a better word Grin) the IMF, and ultimately temper their decisions is this:

What of all the non-European countries that owe money to the IMF

If Greece were the only sovereign country in the world with a debt, then the IMF could do whatever they wanted with it. They could cancel it. Halve it. Ask for it to be repaid in Retsina, or swap it for the rights for a new theme park "Acropolis - the furnace of democracy" - nightly performances with Justin Beiber as Plato. They could do any of those with no repercussions.

Unfortunately, Greece isn't alone in owing the IMF. And the real question has to be, what can the IMF do which won't immediately cause any of it's other creditors to think if they play bolshie enough they'll get a pass too ?

It's not a perfect analogy, but if you take the IMF to be the parents, and indebted nations their teenagers, then not only do you need to treat them equally to have any hope of respect. You also need to be seen to be treating them equally.

Isitmebut · 02/07/2015 15:28

LurkingHusband ...

The IMF ALWAYS want their money back which if memory serves, it lends on behalf of participating States, so yup, it is still someone elses money who domestically could better spend that money on their own unemployment/growth problems.

The IMF has not had a loan to a non emerging State go bad, in decades.

The IMF, and this might be key, (as an entity) is only on the hook for around 10% of the Euro 330 ish billion Greece has borrowed.

So one wonders how much of the IMF money is owed to participating Members, that are also on the hook via the three EU entities that loaned them the dosh so far.

Hullygully · 02/07/2015 16:01

that's spurious isitme. Poverty is poverty. I think you'll find the starving are all equally hungry.

And they had the debt cancelled when they needed it cancelled. The rest is irrelevant, but nice try.

Your name suits you more and more btw.

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 16:05

Isitmebut...

You have it in a nutshell, really. The credibility of the various aggregated sources of funding (IMF, ECB, EU) hinges on how they deal with Greece. If they show they can't manage that debt, then their sponsor states will pretty quickly stop giving them any more money.

There was a humorous aside on the BBC recently suggesting that Apple might be able to "buy" Greece. As it turns out, Greeces debts exceed even Apples bank balance (which is a very powerful illustration of just how much Greece owes) even if Apple were interested in buying countries. And as with all humour, if you engage brain, it starts a fascinating train of thought ...

What if a company (Apple for the sake of argument) were to pay off a countries debts ? What could they get in return ?

Imagine a troika of Amazon, Google, and Apple, ponying up the Eu300 billion Greece owes, in return for a nice tax regime they can write the rules of. With an army to back it up ...

I will guarantee someone has written a futuristic story with a similar plotline.

Hullygully · 02/07/2015 16:05

IMF five mins ago:

IMF - Greece needs an extra €50bn and large scale debt relief

Just days ahead of the Greek referendum, the International Monetary Fund has said the struggling country needs €50bn of extra funds over the next three years. It also requires large scale debt relief to create “a breathing space” and stabilise the economy. Larry Elliott and Phillip Inman write:

With three days to go before a knife-edge referendum, the IMF revealed a deep split with Europe as it warned that Greece’s debts were “unsustainable”.

Fund officials said they would not be prepared to put a proposal for a third Greek bail out package to the Washington-based organisation’s board unless it included both a commitment to economic reform and debt relief.

According to the IMF, Greece should have a 20-year grace period before making any debt repayments and that final payments should not take place until 2055.

The IMF’s analysis will be seized upon by Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, who has been insisting that he will only agree to tough new austerity measure if Greece is granted debt relief.

Hullygully · 02/07/2015 16:08

More from the IMF

He says: “The IMF admits the deterioration in Greece’s financial position means is not in a position to cope with debt repayments for at least three years, even with a debt write-off.

It said: “Even with concessional financing through 2018, debt would remain very high for decades and highly vulnerable to shocks.”

This would entail a much longer period before debt repayments are due and a longer period to pay them off.

The IMF said: “Given the fragile debt dynamics, further concessions are necessary to restore debt sustainability. As an illustration, one option for recovering sustainability would be to extend the grace period to 20 years and the amortization period to 40 years on existing EU loans and to provide new official sector loans to cover financing needs falling due on similar terms at least through 2018.”

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:11

Greece have some hard decisions to make, that much is evident. The day of reckoning is looming, and I do not envy those having to make such choices. However we do require a strong and solid world economy where rules are obeyed, regulations are adhered to, and financial stability to keep the world turning peacefully.
It would not do to write off debts in totality and would show extreme incompetence and would not be responsible, and soon every country would expect it a 'write off'. Obviously.
However, common sense tells us that there is a middle road somewhere, that does not involve such draconian measures but does see some/most of the debt being paid slowly and over an extended period of time...but the question still lingers, regardless of payment or non payment of the debt, should Greece remain in the euro? The flawed institution that it is, in its current entity? Will she not simply find itself herself in this position forever more given the discussions on here and the inability of the euro to adjust or be flexible to the needs of struggling countries ... the debt is one question, but I think there are larger ones that also need answering, and quickly, because there is a whole queue behind Greece waiting quietly for the answer.

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 16:15

I suspect we'll end up with a fudge, whereby Greece is bailed out/restructured/rescued, with leaving the Euro the price to pay.

To be honest Greece leaving the Euro needs to be a pre-requisite to any deal. Otherwise we're just paying off this months spending by our teenager (on our credit card), and leaving them with the card for next month.

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:15

Lurking husband, I think you have just hit on the next hollywood blockbuster OR a great idea for IS to latch on to... take your pick!

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:20

Lurking husband ~ yes I agree actually, that is the most likely outcome.

Take two coming from northern european countries up in arms and protesting at the cost they are expected to cover and who asked them whether this was okay? No one has given THEM a referendum on whether they want Greece to stay? And keep bailing them out? (if any one dares to tell the truth) best keep that one quiet and buried in the dungeons of the EU chambers.

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 16:22

a great idea for IS to latch on to

IS ? Incompetent State ? When every petty warlord and opportunist jihadist (you don't really believe they're all in it for the lolz do you?) has had their percentage points, I doubt IS could afford an Ouzo in Athens, even if the ones who pretend not to drink wanted to.

If IS is in the market for buying countries, then maybe Legoland is up for grabs ?

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:27

It is no wonder that Greece under the restructuring package would certainly wish to stay within the euro, why wouldn't they? It is in their interests to do so. I wonder if it is even possible to make them leave if such a deal was done?
Unchartered waters is probably putting it mildly.
If an attempted ejection did take place, it will be tossed around in the courts for years and years, with Greece becoming the benchmark to all future countries in a similar situations.
I am sure Germany is wishing they had put the break out ejection clause in now, I am sure they had no idea they would be the ones wishing to use it!!

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:28

Lurking, I will remind you of that in a few years time, that comment is surely to bite your ass one day!!!

Viviennemary · 02/07/2015 16:30

I think Greece has to come out of the Euro. Or else the Eurozone must think of itself as one country. I don't see any other way. Except years more of uncertainty, brinkmanship and disagreements or much worse.

Heartofgold25 · 02/07/2015 16:35

I don't think the eurozone can ever be one country. It is just completely unworkable and would be deeply unpopular. I am afraid to survive the EU is going to have to cut out the dry rot eventually. And that probably includes more than just Greece. Otherwise it will be dragged down into a mire of debt and stagnation.
Greece would also in my view flourish without the restrictions of the EU, and so there is a potential win win if managed properly.... if...
Thank God we didn't join the euro...!

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 16:47

Heartofgold25

Lurking, I will remind you of that in a few years time, that comment is surely to bite your ass one day!!!

Shrug. I'd wager thousands of years of human history (and thus human behaviour) against the events of a few years. Especially when there are so many good reasons to keep the [voting] public scared of an amorphous, terrifying bogeyman. Ohhhhhh, big scary zionists IS. Oooooh world domination. It's all a bit deja vu, if you've read enough these past 30 (or 300) years.

Air strikes on Syria now, you say ? Thank goodness we have a pure and unsullied media complex in the UK. Otherwise there might be some truth in a cynical comment that maybe it's more in the interests of the arms manufacturers BAe, than the UK population.

I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable jetting into an IS stronghold. But they are not - and never will be - anything more than a ragtag bunch of disparate losers, who have twigged that adding a religious twist to their thuggery gives them a free pass. Clearly they've swallowed the "guía conquistadores" whole. Maybe we'll hear about Golden cities too ?

If we really wanted to deal with IS, we'd locate all our homegrown jihad-hungry nutters. Expose them to differing planted mentors, and ship them out to IS-land with a load of conflicting stories. We then suggest that IS has been infiltrated by infidels, and let them spend the next 5 years wiping each other out. Maybe that's what we are doing already ...

LurkingHusband · 02/07/2015 16:49

Greece would also in my view flourish without the restrictions of the EU

Not something that the EU really wants though, is it. Especially given the situation in the UK. So another political (as opposed to economic) complicating factor.

DoctorTwo · 02/07/2015 20:36

Google Professor Steve Keen's article titled "Bureaucrazies vs Democracy", it's most interesting and hits the nail on the head. The Euro is untractable and in the long run will fail because the rules of the currency do not envisage a financial crisis and what to do in the event of one.

Also, even if Greece were to implement austerity measures for the next 32 years their debt to GDP would still be 110%. So the only sensible thing to do would be to quit the Eurozone and return to the Drachma, as it can be allowed to trade at its proper level comparative to the Greek economy. So the first couple of years will be hard but they would have a cheap workforce compared to Eurozone countries and will therefore be competitive.

The Troika of unelected officials who want to usurp democracy are scared of a Grexit because the following will likely happen:-

Failure of Deutsche Bank. It has a multi trillion dollar unhedged derivatives book, and much of the money used to 'bail out' Greece would actually be going to them to aid their liquidity.

France, Italy, Spain and Portugal leaving the Eurozone. They're all basket cases and can't grow by devaluing their currency using QE as Germany still remembers the Weimar Republic and what QE did then, just as it's doing to Zimbabwe.

The only future for the Eurozone is if there's a unified government that's not elected with all 'laws' enforced using military force. It's the only way they can enforce permanent austerity which is their obvious aim in order to funnel more money to those who don't deserve it.

CoteDAzur · 02/07/2015 22:53

"AUSTERITY HASN'T WORKED"

You said this before and I showed you that actually Greece's economic figures improved with austerity measures, quoting Bank of Greece's official numbers.

Which before-after economic measures are you comparing when you come up with the declaration that "austerity hasn't worked"?

What do you think will work? (Except (1) writing off any further debt, and (2) the rest of EU financing Greece's social state)