The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

Listen to what Yanis is saying in this short interview. It's all here. yanisvaroufakis.eu/.../why-a-no-vote-in-the.../

And here's a lovely photo of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10101306697435271&set=a.622297394481.2249678.61008159&type=1

Yesterday was an indebted government classic in how NOT to borrow more money, whether in 1953 or 2015.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras telling his European Creditors in the morning that he would now accept the nearly all of their terms for new loans – fully aware it would take time for the Eurozone members States to take in and discuss his amendments – while during the evening passionately broadcasting to ‘the people’ AHEAD of Sunday’s Referendum, urging a "No" vote.

What was all that about; talk about slippery and grease being the word, if trying to confuse the citizens ahead of the vote.

Alternatively political poker player Tsipras, isn’t ‘playing with a full deck’.

Either way I’ll reiterate a point I made much earlier on in this thread, politically clumsy/incompetent Tsipras and Syriza could not be trusted with Greek children’s lunch money, never mind negotiating to borrow billions more from the those who already appear resigned to losing the majority of the hundreds of millions already loaned.

It is clear that the countries within the EU, the EC, the ECB and IMF no longer believe Tsipras/ Varoufakis/Syriza are people they ‘can do (any) business with’.

As there is only one thing worse than a slippery/untrustworthy government, it is an indecisive one that intra day, doesn’t know whether to have shit or a haircut.

Listen to the interview.

And I'm still waiting for ANYONE to actually come up with a sensible way forward that isn't just fuck them they did it innit.

And Germany weren't borrowing money in 1953, they were having their debt cut inhalf. But I realise that is politically inconvenient to your neo-lib agenda.

Hey Hullygully, a bit quick on the trigger there old horse, it would have taken most people longer than 1 minute to THINK of an answer, never mind think and post.

Respect, or was that your 'default' answer whether I posted a Greek political comment or a recipe? lol

Hullygully ..... what are you not getting, that Greek politicians have NO credibility left?

Who would anyone trust with their children's lunch money, never mind over Euro 300 billion of loans (halved or whole), Greek 'anti business fat State' Marxists, or the German's, whose Bundesbank (Central Bank) after the 2nd WW was as tight with money to it OWN people, as an Aylesbury ducks arse???

From what I understood the PM was saying that a 'No' vote would actually get them al better deal as Europe would realise that the Greeks weren't going to be bossed around by anybody. I feel sorry for the Greek people.

Would you say that all English politicians are the same?

Or Finnish?

Or is it just Greeks that are subject to your sweeping generalisations of homogeneity?

Old horse? I prefer bean, but hey ho.

They were hardly complicated responses, what a strange suggestion.

The joke is that most people had faith in the financial ability of the Eurozone as they thought that the European Central Bank was going to be somewhere as prudent/tough, as the German Bundesbank who kept German inflation very low e.g. as OURS was up over 20% in the 1970's?

Wrong post war example, methinks.

I am struggling to follow your meanderings, perhaps I am not as quick-witted as you accuse me of being.

"Old horse? I prefer bean, but hey ho."

Trigger was the name of cowboy Roy Rogers horse, so it seem to fit, but "hey ho" was close to what he used to say. lol

P.S. Trying to play the Greek vs German 'race card' to a little Englander, how very sad.

P.S.S. Or the 'dumb card' if I shoot your argument down.

race card? Fact card. Sauce for the goose etc.

not dumb card, genuinely baffled.

You don't seem to have anything to say apart from stupid old Greeks, serve them right.

Niceguy I agree with you that the EU are indeed being deeply challenged by Greece and have a potential dangerous problem of other countries following suit if Greece does not pay up/shut up. It is a direct challenge to the authority of Berlin and the gangsters cooking up the scapegoat that is about to be Greece.
Berlin needs Greece to fail, and fail painfully and spectacularly.

I think most of us know exactly what is happening behind the scenes.
Merkel is refusing to comment or continue talks now until after the referendum in hope that she will be talking to a nice friendly, submissive and cowering new greek government so she can lay down the 'troika' law and reinstate her control over Greece. The closing down of the banks in Greece will help drive the Greeks into fear and submission a few starving, desperate and dying pensioners will help their case no end! It is not an accident that the banks are closed....

I completely disagree with your comments that Greece did not take its medicine, they may not have been quite so efficent as other countries but to say they have not made any effort is simply not true. Their unemployment levels are horrific, the public exhaustion with five years of austerity has really taken its toll on the nation collectively. We all know that there is NO CHANCE that they can ever pay back the enormous debts owed, the whole situation has been grossly mismanaged and the EU will pay the price, one way or the other.

Do I think Greece should have entered the EU in the first place? Of course not, but all of the EU knew this at the time ~ it was an open secret. I am sure the greeks bitterly wish they hadn't joined the EU now. They may have been in debt before they joined, they may not have the most efficient of economies or tax policies (they are not alone in this) but what they did have is SELF RESPECT, independence, decisions made in Athens for the best interests of their country and their people, they had a future and one they could work for and strive for, they had booming tourism because they were not held to ransom by the euro.

This will turn ugly either way, yes or no on Sunday, because ultimately Greece will leave the euro the only question is when..

I am interested in solutions, not glee and bile. I can't see how that helps anyone.

But I seem to be in the minority.

I honestly think that was the mistake Tsipras and Varoufakis made, they thought that once presented with the clear and obvious fact that the debt could never be paid, a fact agreed with by the IMF and the USA (and EU members privately), that everyone would say, "You know, you're right, let's sort something out."

And of course politically they wouldn't say that and now it's all gone to shit for everyone, even though it isn't what anyone actually wants.

Madness

Hully ~ the only answer as I see it, after looking at your links, and not just for Greece but for many of the other southern european countries is simply to leave the currency, it will never work for them.
Culturally, economically, politically and in almost all ways the north and south of Europe are just so entirely different, and those differences and the cracks we are seeing now will just keep getting wider. Forced open earlier than anticipated by the credit meltdown.

The euro was doomed from the beginning, it is impossible to run a superstate like a crazy motorway with every car speeding by at super sonic speeds others chugging along taking the scenic route, some going backwards entirely, it just ends up a car crash and that is what we are witnessing today.

Or different strokes for different folks, heart.

I have seen suggestions for how the EU could work taking into account radically different economies, but I can't find them now and unfortunately I am old and crap at remembering detail so I daren't take guesses at remembering.

I agree that it does look less likely the vote will matter. Because whatever the vote there is no guarantee these cuts will even be applied. This morning on the news I heard that if there is a Yes vote the PM might resign. And another election will be held. What happens if they elect a left wing government that opposes cuts. Back to square one. Greece can't just be let off debts because other countries have had to cut back in order to repay their debts.

And there in lies the heart of the problem Hully....
The EU is a broken business model, it can not work. Greece wants to remain part of the club, I would love to know why if you know?
But can not/will not bow to the wishes of Berlin and the Troika or pay its bills on time (Or at all) The EU club can not have different rules for different countries, although a two speed EU could work in time, it is not something that is on the cards imminently.
It would not be fair either to expect northern europeans to be forever propping up their southern counterparts. So there you have the conundrum.
I have never seen any realistic models of how the EU could work effectively, if anyone has any examples that would be useful.

I have seen suggestions for how the EU could work taking into account radically different economies

It works in the US. Single fiscal policy, single monetary policy, single currency.

But there is a huge collective national sense of belonging, and the huge shovelling of federal funds from (loosely) north to south and coast to interior is regarded as the price of being one nation under God (sic). There are people who think that states should have more power and fiscal autonomy, but they are cranks with little or no electoral sway (Texan independence makes the Tooting Liberation Front look like a mass movement, and that's the largest of them). California is economically powerful enough to be part of the G8 in its own right, but that's fine.

The EU isn't like that, and for practical purposes no-one feels loyalty to it sufficient that they would sacrifice the interests of their own country to benefit another part of the EU, and even if they did, no politician would admit to that in public.

American cities go bust (Detroit) and even whole counties (Jefferson County, Alabama). It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a state could go bust, although it's unlikely (CDS spreads of 200 to 300 basis points, like Illinois and California, aren't reassuring). But the federal government is big and has deep pockets and can bail them out, without needing international intervention.

European countries are more likely to get into trouble (no shared fiscal policy) and the EU doesn't have enough money to bail them out (hence Greece needing IMF as well as ECB help). And Germans care much less about Greece than Californians do about Wisconsin (and vice versa). Hence where we are.

yes, gemauve, therein lieth the nub.

"Greece can't just be let off debts because other countries have had to cut back in order to repay their debts"

Not only that. The more you cancel Greece's debts, the more you will impoverish European banks, pensions, ECB (European Central Bank) which is funded by the taxes paid by ordinary European citizens. Is that fair for EU citizens who will be the ultimate losers if even more debts are cancelled?

Also, I would like to reiterate the question asked downthread by ApplePaltrow - What is so special about Greece that must feel so sorry for their feckless indebtedness that we accept to suffer even more in their place? Why weren't the debts of other countries suffering for generations under incredibly high levels of national debt cancelled, not even those dating from the time of some military dictator who was not even voted into office?

Hullygully .... you are asking the folk on Mumsnet for THEIR plans to end the Greek crisis (how we would restructure Euro 330 billion of Greek loans) which shows a lot a faith in this board, yet Syriza and their democratic mandate is the problem - and will shoot down anything we say as they only really want debt forgiveness now.

But they do not have the ideological expertise to GROW the Greek economy enough to pay off the rest of the debt.

So while you say to me "You don't seem to have anything to say apart from stupid old Greeks, serve them right."

I'd say its time for ALL citizens of all countries, treat any political parties offering nearly painless solutions to huge problems, to treat them like any dodgy bank or fund manager - don't touch them with the proverbial barge pole.

Ah, but what if Vivenne that the greeks do have an election and vote for a nice and friendly right wing government who rushes to Berlin to lick the newly polished shoes of Merkel and beg for forgiveness....would this change anything???? I think most would think so, but it would not.
Because the debt is completely unsustainable, it will be a never ending austerity package that will see Greece gasping for air for decades. In a few months another left wing government will come along to try and relieve his nation only for the whole debacle to start again.....

Hully your cue for another headbanging moment... :(