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Does anyone else think the death penalty is being subtly made more thinkable?

136 replies

WhizzBangCaligula · 15/11/2006 14:48

Or perhaps unsubtly?

There have been a few cases recently of horrific murders, some involving the torture of victims beforehand. When you read the news reports on sentencing, they always say the murderer will be eligible for parole in 17 years, or 25 years or whatever.

Most people think life should mean life or at least as much of life as possible, like till 80. When MP's in the 60's voted for the abolition of the death penalty (against the will of the majority of voters) it was on the understanding that dangerous sadistic murderers would stay in prison until they were either very old men (usually men) or they died there. It was not on the understanding that a 29 year old would be sent to prison for torture and murder, and know that they would be let out at the age of 54, when they could still have a chance of a relatively normal life in the community, or indeed still be young enough to commit the same sort of horrible crime.

If someone asks me "what would you prefer? A life sentence or the death penalty for those people who killed that 15 year old/ that poor teenage girl who was raped, tortured, burned and murdered/ all those other victims who suffered horrifically and who will never have birthdays again?" I'd say life because I don't believe in the death penalty. (Sally Clarke and Angela Cannings could be dead now if we had it.) But if they asked if I'd prefer 25 years or the death penalty, then I'd say the death penalty frankly, because 25 years for having taken someone's life and hope and future and made them face death in agony and terror and put their friends and relatives through the anguish of that kind of loss seems shockingly frivolous to me - immoral in fact. And it seems to me that the authorities are deliberately making the death penalty more attractive by having these laughable sentences.

Am I just getting old and fearful or have I spotted a plot to butter us all up so that we'll find the re-introduction of the death penalty acceptable? Is this happening in other European countries (at the moment you can't be a member of the EU if you have the death penalty, but that could change)? Or is it just that it costs too much to keep brutal murderers in prison? Why doesn't life mean life? Why is the need for justice not being met, leading people to conclude that the death penalty needs to be re-introduced? I've met loads of people recently who have been life-long opponents of the death penalty but have changed their minds as a result of a few of these cases and the knowledge that the murderers will be out in their 40's and 50's (in some cases, even in their 30's)

Oh and I know the prison service is awful and prison needs reform, but this is about sentencing.

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Carmenere · 15/11/2006 19:47

Not for me it hasn't. I want paedophiles to be chemically and physically castrated and I want life to mean life. I don't want a situation where the criminal justice system executes the mentally ill or innocent in error. Playing God is a dangerous game and I would not like to live in a society where it is permitted.

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:50

but green lumpy tonsils...

the system as is dont work at all
the jails are full? would you be happy with a rest home for the parolees next door?

or a violent murderer of blonde women let out after 7 yrs, who suddenly walks past your house twice, meaningfully looking in through the windows??? (ps I dont know if you are blonde!!)

there are those people who commit acts so awful they set themselves aside from normal society.

but to be flipsided, I do agree that the issue being run by a corrupt government does get a bit scarey...cash for lethal injection!!!

WhizzBangCaligula · 15/11/2006 19:50

I used to think that Greeny but I don't know now. Where you have an army, you accept that violence and killing are legitimate. So the death penalty isn't such a huge leap for society - any state which has an army (and I think that probably in practice means all the states recognised by the UN) accepts that killing and violence are legitimate, however they frame it. (Obviously some pacifists don't accept the need for an army and would abolish it.)

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hulababy · 15/11/2006 19:51

I think a more effective and less uncivilised way to sort out the prison crisis is to restructure sentencing.

There are people in closed prisons who don't need to be in there. Those charged with less crimes need an alternative.

Part time prison sentences could be used, with immediate closed prison for those who abuse the system or abscond. People go to work and get rehabilitated, but have a curfew time (night time, weekends, etc - when they commit crimes) and have to be inside their prison at that time.

More effective community sentencing.

HDC (tagging) that actually works!

Make more use of open prisons to start rehabilitation.

Better rehab programmes and more access to education/phscology courses that address reoffending behaviour both inside and outside of prison. These already exist but due to money and satffing are not as effective as they should be and it can take too long to get people on the courses; some are released before they can get ont he course.

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:51

'violence and killing are wrong'

so what happens to you if you are someone who decides wilfully to be WRONG?

Socci · 15/11/2006 19:51

Message withdrawn

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:53

I love the bunch of prisoners who have won their lawsuit for being forced to go clean in prison

FFS the very idea

WhizzBangCaligula · 15/11/2006 19:53

Does it all come down to money? Is that why they are letting all these people out on parole? Because they can't be arsed to spend money on more effective sentencing for lesser crimes?

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hulababy · 15/11/2006 19:54

By clearing prisons in these ways, there wouldn't be a major problem with housing the more voilent and serious prisoners as there'd be less inside.

I would also have more mult occupancy cells and remove single cell privledges for all those who do not actually need to have one - due to nature of crime or risk to others/themselves.

And we also need more places in secured prisons for those with mental health problems. There are prisoners with serious problems in normal prison's health care units waiting for places.

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:54

our taxes keep those stinking bastards fed in jail only for them to be released, get bored, and do the bloody crime again.

I am glad I am not in the police, busting my balls for a conviction, only to hear that the scum get out a ridiculously short time later

hulababy · 15/11/2006 19:56

My experience is that less people are getting put forward fror parole, due to the recent spate of reoffending of a serious nature.

I do think money and spaces will be a factor though - isn't it always.

We need more prisons, but again this week a proposal was turned down because residents didnt;t want it. NIMBY issues all over the place when it comes to having prisons of any form near people's homes.

jampots · 15/11/2006 19:56

I personally dont agree with the death sentence either an agree 25 years isnt exactly a life sentence. My friend was murdered 21 years ago and her killer has very likely been released already having committed only the one crime.

FWIW I think murderers/rapists/paedos etc should be forced to undergo clinical drug trials and used as guinea pigs

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:57

hula you talk a lot of sense;
I like the idea of death penalty for the very worst, most serious of crimes

why should a multiple rapsit lead a fulfilled 30yrs in jail, painting pretty pictures etc while 20 womens lives are shattered forever? Plus all of their families?

GreenLumpyTonsilsAgain · 15/11/2006 19:57

No, VB, I certainly didn't say I was happy with the penal system as it is. I don't think anyone would say the situation in the prison service is ideal. My impression is that it resembles our other large public service institutions in that it is underresourced, bureaucratically unwieldy, lacking in focus and poorly managed at all levels. I do have some ideas on improving it but I'm not going to trot them out on a thread about the death penalty. I'm sure there are many other MNers with more experience and better ideas than me, if anyone wants to start a thread about prison reform.

I just don't think taking a giant step backwards into the Middle Ages and hanging people up by their testicles is necessarily the way to improve matters

FioFio · 15/11/2006 19:58

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VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:58

jampots you seen A clockwork orange/one flewover cuckoos nest?
drugs just mask their true evil

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 19:59

I would have got medieval on his behalf, he was sub-human.

GreenLumpyTonsilsAgain · 15/11/2006 20:00

The arguments in favour of the death penalty always seem to amount to an irrational rush of rhiteous indignation and a cry of "fight fire with fire". It's understandable, but it's illogical and it doesn't work.

Me, I prefer to fight fire with water, and possibly tea towels

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 20:00

anyway, to answer the question posed by the OP

Yes!

GreenLumpyTonsilsAgain · 15/11/2006 20:00

righteous

it's typing, not spelling, honest!

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 20:01

I am an earth sign.!

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 20:02

using water, we could wash all of the prisoners, really hard!!!!

VoodooBanana · 15/11/2006 20:02

then flick their butts with the tea towels!

hulababy · 15/11/2006 20:03

I could still not accept any time for seeing a death penalty in our country. It doesn't belong in a civilsed country IMO.

I'd rather see a prisoner sit it out in prison, without the hope of parole or release.

FioFio · 15/11/2006 20:03

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