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Does anyone else think the death penalty is being subtly made more thinkable?

136 replies

WhizzBangCaligula · 15/11/2006 14:48

Or perhaps unsubtly?

There have been a few cases recently of horrific murders, some involving the torture of victims beforehand. When you read the news reports on sentencing, they always say the murderer will be eligible for parole in 17 years, or 25 years or whatever.

Most people think life should mean life or at least as much of life as possible, like till 80. When MP's in the 60's voted for the abolition of the death penalty (against the will of the majority of voters) it was on the understanding that dangerous sadistic murderers would stay in prison until they were either very old men (usually men) or they died there. It was not on the understanding that a 29 year old would be sent to prison for torture and murder, and know that they would be let out at the age of 54, when they could still have a chance of a relatively normal life in the community, or indeed still be young enough to commit the same sort of horrible crime.

If someone asks me "what would you prefer? A life sentence or the death penalty for those people who killed that 15 year old/ that poor teenage girl who was raped, tortured, burned and murdered/ all those other victims who suffered horrifically and who will never have birthdays again?" I'd say life because I don't believe in the death penalty. (Sally Clarke and Angela Cannings could be dead now if we had it.) But if they asked if I'd prefer 25 years or the death penalty, then I'd say the death penalty frankly, because 25 years for having taken someone's life and hope and future and made them face death in agony and terror and put their friends and relatives through the anguish of that kind of loss seems shockingly frivolous to me - immoral in fact. And it seems to me that the authorities are deliberately making the death penalty more attractive by having these laughable sentences.

Am I just getting old and fearful or have I spotted a plot to butter us all up so that we'll find the re-introduction of the death penalty acceptable? Is this happening in other European countries (at the moment you can't be a member of the EU if you have the death penalty, but that could change)? Or is it just that it costs too much to keep brutal murderers in prison? Why doesn't life mean life? Why is the need for justice not being met, leading people to conclude that the death penalty needs to be re-introduced? I've met loads of people recently who have been life-long opponents of the death penalty but have changed their minds as a result of a few of these cases and the knowledge that the murderers will be out in their 40's and 50's (in some cases, even in their 30's)

Oh and I know the prison service is awful and prison needs reform, but this is about sentencing.

OP posts:
Uwilalalalalala · 15/11/2006 16:39

I think it is more a penalty for what they have done. And, it's not a deterrant, but rather a guarantee.

I'm for the death penalty in extreme cases (such as premeditated mass murder), but I'm not sure I'm for leaving the EU. I think the UK sits in a very good position be being a member of the EU, yet retaining our our currency (hence keeping a bit more control on our economy).

TinkersBollocks · 15/11/2006 16:39

I'm not laughing out loud at what you said, just teh phrasing made me laugh. Oh god, this is coming out wrong. Agree with you, just thinking of teh absurdity of the death penalty in the scenario you describe made me laugh.

SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 15/11/2006 16:45

I agree Caligula, I think there is some not-very-subtle media manipulation going on on this issue. Ditto corporal punishment in schools, judicial torture, and other forms of savagery we have abandoned at various points on our journey towards civilised society.

I don't think it will get very far - the actual law seems to be heading in the opposite direction - but I think there is a fairly vocal school of thought within the media and elsewhere which is calling for these measures to be reconsidered. Very distasteful and alarming IMO.

Sobernow · 15/11/2006 16:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 15/11/2006 16:46

...but we have always had a lunatic fringe who wanted to bring back hanging and flogging and ditch the EU. It's the same people, isn't it?

Pruni · 15/11/2006 16:49

Message withdrawn

edam · 15/11/2006 16:51

I don't think the media generally do deliberately mis-report or distort coverage of trials - in fact there are pretty strict rules about court reporting. But you can't give a huge amount of detail in 500 words. If you want to see what really goes on, visit your local courts and sit in the public gallery.

hulababy · 15/11/2006 16:52

I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't believe it has any place in a civilised country.

Many research findings show that the risk of ebing caught is not a deterrent to criminals.

In countries where there is a the death penalty is there less serious crime?

Don't forget that just because someone is eligible for parole in 20 years time, it does not mean they will automatically be let out at that date. They will need to go through the parole process, which I do believe is getting tighter especially in light of recent events. And a parole board will have to find them suitable for release and no longer a risk to society. Chances are they are likely to spend far longer in prison than that recommended sentence. They are then released on license for life - so any wrong turn at all (not just of a serious nature) can have them taken straight back into prison.

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 16:52

It's always baffled me why Brady and Hindley are/have served 'life' sentences but others do not?

There have been equally heinous murders committed since.

Pruni · 15/11/2006 16:54

Message withdrawn

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 16:55

I also believe that incarceration should be more severe for the vilest of offenders.

hulababy · 15/11/2006 16:57

Whether someone gets out or not depends on their risk rating and their liklihood to reoffend. If they deny a crime, don't comply with sentence planning, don't address their reoffending behaviour, are mentally unstable, etc can all have a bearing.

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 16:59

the worrying thing though hula, is too many are released by so called 'experts' who are convinced of a prisoner's rehabilitation only for them to reoffend sometimes with appalling consequences.

SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 15/11/2006 17:01

Hmmm, that worries me from the point of view of miscarriages of justice. Denying the offence/refusal to address reoffending risk are possible indicators of innocence as well as recalcitrance.

One of my many objections to the death penalty is that I wouldn't trust most of the lawyers I have met to sit the right way on a donkey. And as for judges, and the average juror.... I wouldn't want to be responsible for killing someone on the basis that our judicial system produced a guilty verdict, would you?

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 17:03

I think it was because Brady & Hindley were serial killers and of course the victims were mainly children. Sixties Britain was 'horrified' by the murders.

southeastastra · 15/11/2006 17:04

ian brady is in broadmoor (is he still alive?) because of his extreme nuttiness (nicely put pruni!)

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 17:04

In answer to the OP though - I'd go for Life meaning just that. It will give them plenty of time for reflection.

JoolsToo · 15/11/2006 17:06

plenty of 'nutters' have been released - why particularly those two to remain in prison?

I'm glad they are btw!

TheHighwayCod · 15/11/2006 17:18

she is dead you nob
they think ti was becasue she was a woman
a n also she hid the murder of one kdi till th 80s

Journey2 · 15/11/2006 17:21

Lived in Singapore: Death Penalty for drug offences (over a certain amount)/dealing and murder.
My opinion? Drug use still existed of course it did, but when found to be trafficking/dealing there was NO excuse not to know the penalty.
Drugs is a terrible reason for the cr@p that goes on in this country and others... I think (and this comes from someone very against the death penalty in the past) for the serious problems and destruction they cause that yes, if found trafficking one should die.
Yes, I am concerned over 100% proof and also the method of the death penalty (want a horrifying read, try mucked up attempts when giving the death penalty
A member posted about Texas. Yes, also recently some lads who were down for death row were given a change to life sentences because they were 17 at the time and this no longer could be considered an adult in changes to legislation.
I recently read a letter from one of them who was seriously all over the place because of this change to his sentence.. he was wishing they had killed him. I don't have the words to describe how I felt knowing his case and then reading the letter.
I feel something has to be done in regards to the UK. It has been a culture shock to return. The aggression that is around. I know media hype up and focus on the negative.. but it's so sad to read. Kids appear (not all of course!) to be in charge of their parents, no wonder chaos is taking a grip!
There was a guy in wilts who sold some drugs, he was let off because the judge felt he was intelligent and as he was paying off some debts.. pleeease.. what kind of message does this send? He should have had some kind of punishment.
Sorry for my ramblings..

TheHighwayCod · 15/11/2006 17:23

i htink they are ramblings tbh
as someone said further downt he thread snetencing is a very tricky art adn unless you ahev been in court , read the reports weighed upt he different options etc its hard ot understand a sentincing decision that you read about int he papers

TheHighwayCod · 15/11/2006 17:25

i also think that there is a common miconcpetion t hat sentences act as a deterrent.
On the whole ( apart fom major theft or art thif kinds) offenders do NOT weigh up tht e pors and cons of a course of action.
theis maybe due to drugs or desperation or just them being thick tbh

KathyMCMLXXII · 15/11/2006 17:28

I read somewhere that most people think that in general sentences are too soft, but when you show them the specific details of cases and ask them what the sentence should be they come up with something that is actually softer than the sentence that was given.

SantaGotStuckUpTheGreensleeve · 15/11/2006 17:28

I agree with cod's last two posts

but then I am running a temperature

hulababy · 15/11/2006 17:28

Parole baords also look at past behaviours, previos convinctions, previous nature of crimes, etc.

I know there are situations where people have got parole and then reoffended; some recent high profile cases have been like this. However, it generally seems that the crime they are on parole for is a much lesser crime, and history hasn't shown a liklihood of of them going on to commetnt anothe rmuch worse crime. in many of the high profile cases there was nothing on file to suggest this was likely.