Poroshenko says Ukraine ready for total war against Russia

[claig]

I dismissed a lot of Poroshenko's and Yatsenyuk's statements in the past because they tended to be exaggerations and full of hyperbole, but this time I think it is real. I think they must have been told to go ahead.

"Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko today said he is ready for 'total war' against Russia as he claimed the crisis in eastern Europe is more serious than the threat from Islamic State.
...
'I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops,' he said.

'We are prepared for a scenario of total war.

'We don't want war, we want peace and we are fighting for European values.'

He told Germany's Bild newspaper the unfolding drama on the edge of the EU was more critical than the Islamic State defiance.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2838094/Ukrainian-president-says-country-ready-war-Russia-says-crisis-dangerous-spread-ISIS.html

Germany is usually the major restraining influence in conflict with Russia, but from what Merkel said the other day, I think everything has been decided and everyone is on board.

"In a foreign policy speech in Sydney on Sunday following the G20 summit, Merkel sounded deeply despondent about Putin’s policies and behaviour and gloomy about the prospects of forcing a strategic shift from the Kremlin.

“This is not just about Ukraine. It’s about Moldova, it’s about Georgia,” said Merkel. “If things carry on like this … we will need to raise the issue of Serbia, of the states in the western Balkans.”

It was the first time a European leader had warned that Putin was seeking to press Balkan states to his side in the worsening tug-of-war in Europe between Moscow and Brussels.

“The Ukraine crisis is truly not a regional affair,” she said, voicing incredulity that Putin’s campaign could take place 25 years after Europe’s division into two blocs ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall. “It affects us all … how can something like this happen in the middle of Europe? Old thinking about spheres of influence, trampling international law, must not succeed.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ukrainian President Yanukovych (whoever), heading a Ukraine that was edging closer to Europe, then (for some reason) changing direction to get closer to the Russian Federation, CAUSED the coup?

Russian-esk elections are not known for their democratic legit-ness, what is Putin's current voter approval rating, 110%? lol

The EU did neither arm separatists or march across the border into Ukraine, but Russia did.

And for some unknown reason, as Putin has just told the world leaders in Australia he ain't going to stop - the government of Ukraine has got the hump, has finally had enough, and saying whatever it takes, it has to stop.

Doesn't Russia have the largest standing army in Europe, and the Ukraine 2nd, or did Russia taking the Crimea region reduce the Ukraine's standing army numbers?

Anyhoo .. 'the problem' can either by addressed by Russia NOT supporting the separatists by proxy/sending in troops OR Russia telling everyone within Ukraine who want to ruled by Russia, they can have a home within Russia.

But as Ukraine in size, agriculture, industry and other 'stuff' is quite a prize to add to a less diverse Russian economy, the latter solution is unlikely to happen.

Maybe the lesson of the Ukraine, for the UK and the UK's Trident nuclear deterrent is, do NOT decommission it, as Russian reformers come and go - so you never know when 'the Russians are coming', or flexing those bare chested muscles somewhere in the world with impunity.

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ukrainian President Yanukovych (whoever), heading a Ukraine that was edging closer to Europe, then (for some reason) changing direction to get closer to the Russian Federation, CAUSED the coup?"

You have a partial understanding, but it is not complete. Putin couldn't stand Yanukovch, he thought he was a crook, just like lots of Ukrainians thought too. Yanukovych was weighing up two offers, one from the EU and one for a trade pact etc with Russia and their economic trading union with Belarus, Kazakhstan etc. When he read the small print of the EU deal and looked at how much money and low oil prices Russia was offering, he realised that the Russian deal was a better deal for the Ukrainian people, and decided to go cold on the EU deal.

That caused panic in EU bigwig circles, and the result ended up in a coup that toppled Yanukovych as Neo-nazi type thugs threatened his life. The people living in Donetsk and Lugansk rejected the coup and believed it was undemocratic and have expressed their wish for more autonomy from the EU backed new government.

'Russian-esk elections are not known for their democratic legit-ness, what is Putin's current voter approval rating, 110%? lol'

Probably double that at a guess.

'The EU did neither arm separatists or march across the border into Ukraine, but Russia did.'

The separatists are heavily outnumbered by the rest of Ukraine and the EU wants the separatists defeated, that is why it did not arm the separatists. But lots of money was spent in Ukraine and there were reports in the Polish press that some of the Neo-nazis involved in the coup were trained in Poland. Ukraine is bankrupt and needs EU money, hardworking EU citizens' money, to bail them out.

"And for some unknown reason, as Putin has just told the world leaders in Australia he ain't going to stop - the government of Ukraine has got the hump, has finally had enough, and saying whatever it takes, it has to stop."

This is what Putin said to German TV in the past few days.

“You want the Ukrainian central authorities to annihilate everyone there, all of their political foes and opponents,” Putin said in an interview yesterday with Germany’s ARD television. “Is that what you want? We certainly don’t. And we won’t let it happen.”

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-17/putin-warns-he-won-t-let-ukraine-defeat-eastern-rebels.html

'Doesn't Russia have the largest standing army in Europe, and the Ukraine 2nd, or did Russia taking the Crimea region reduce the Ukraine's standing army numbers?'

I don't know the numbers, but the Ukrainian military is no match for the Russian military as it is less modern and less well-equipped.

'Anyhoo .. 'the problem' can either by addressed by Russia NOT supporting the separatists by proxy/sending in troops OR Russia telling everyone within Ukraine who want to ruled by Russia, they can have a home within Russia.'

It is not as simple as that, because the people living in those regions have been there for centuries, it is their home and they are not prepared to accept an EU backed coup government aided by Neo-nazis telling them to accept its rule or get out of their homes.

"But as Ukraine in size, agriculture, industry and other 'stuff' is quite a prize to add to a less diverse Russian economy, the latter solution is unlikely to happen."

The rebels live in the richest part of Ukraine, full of mines and steel plants, that the EU deal would have led to being shut down in the usual restructuring and modernisation process that the EU subjects Southern European countries to. The rest of Ukraine is dependent on Russian oil and is practically bankrupt and needs EU taxpayers' money handed over by unelected EU bureaucrrats in order to survive.

Putin wants a federalisation and autonomy deal that would respect the rights of the Russian speaking Ukrainians who live in Donetsk and Ukraine, but of course the EU bigwigs and their puppets will not allow that.

So now the Eu backed government has said it wants "total war" against Russia.

But there is a statesman in the UK that they have not counted on - Nigel Farage.

Here is Peter Hitchens again

"But the warmongers are selectively blind. Hardly any British news media have mentioned an event in Kiev last week. A group of five louts, one of them an MP from the thuggish, racialist ‘Svoboda’ party, forced their way into the office of Oleksandr Panteleymonov, chief of the main Ukrainian TV station. There they physically attacked him and shouted anti-Russian racial abuse at him.

The MP involved is a member of the Ukrainian Parliament’s committee on ‘Freedom of Speech’. And the louts were so proud of what they did that they filmed it and posted it on the internet.

These people are supposed to be our allies and friends.

On their behalf, our Prime Minister is puffing himself up like a bullfrog, and busily creating a new Cold War that will benefit nobody except spies and weapons-makers, for a cause he doesn’t understand and can’t explain.

If this is the kind of statesman it produces, it strikes me that Eton can’t be such a good school after all."

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2587118/PETER-HITCHENS-Were-dragged-new-Cold-War-puffed-bullfrog-I-don-t-mean-President-Putin.html

Can you imagine if Cameron accepts a TV debate with statesman Nigel Farage and foreign policy and EU foreign policy comes up? Because one thing's for sure, Farage knows his stuff.

There you go against, quantity over quality THE PROBLEM of civil war in Ukraine, is Russia and Russian separatists in Ukraine NOT the EU.

It is like Newcastle wanting to join Scotland, Scotland arming them and then sending troops - I REPEAT WHAT DO THE MAJORITY IN UKRAINE WANT?

As you feel the need to REPEAT from the last page what Hitchins said in March BEFORE Putin stepped up military aggression to all NATO members and sent 4 battleships to a world leader conference in Austalia - I'll repeat my previous answer.

As to Peter Hitchins, lets just say he’s reports on Russia and Cameron are less than balanced, looking at this quote within your link.
“I hated the old USSR as an evil empire. But, having lived in Moscow, I feel a strong affection for post-communist Russia and count Russians as good friends. That does not make me an apologist for Mr Putin. I have repeatedly condemned him for his suppression of opposition and the many evil things done by his state. I can see his faults and do not pretend they do not exist.”

If Cameron is a “bullfrog” for being a spokesman for the EU countries, some with borders and energy reliance on Russia so often need to politically remain quiet in the background, then what does that make Mr Farage?

As Mr Farage applauded Putin/Russia for supporting minority sect Syria’s Assad versus the Sunni majority being murdered by the state (which gave rise to ISIS), and denounced the EU for supporting the majority ethnic Ukrainians against Russian puppet control – I’d suggest that makes Nigel more of an undemocratic British Bull TOAD’.

'I’d suggest that makes Nigel more of an undemocratic British Bull TOAD’.'

I understand that that is what you and the modernisers think of Farage, but let's see what the people of Rochester think tonight after 10 pm.

As for "statesman Farage", paid a very nice salary and expenses by the taxpayer to represent our regions within the EU, is that the same prat who told all those UKIP MEPs to stand up and turn their backs on the new Commissioner as a pathetic gesture on a done deal - what an international figure and leader of men. lol

Farage who 'modernizes' his policies depending on who he is speaking to and can no more bring the UK out of the EU and reduce immigration than I CAN can't buy every sitting Conservative MP - so enjoy renting Rochester, as those who need to vote for the only way OUT of the EU, via a majority Conservative introduced Referendum, will ditch the lying Farage toad in 2015.

Putin was interviewed t'other day and stated that he'd like the US to treat Russia the same way they treat other countries. The problem with this is they won't unless and until he allows Corporate interests in to steal Russia's resourses just like they do on the African continent.

Is that a 'doctor, doctor' joke .... didn't the Russian leader sponcered oly...olig... formely poor apparatchiks, who became rich Russians having bought whole Russian industries for a £1, asset strip Russia yonks ago?

NEWSFLASH, this isn't about 'poor misunderstood Mr Putin' means well in Ukraine, it is about democracy, what the majority of people in the Ukraine wants.

P.S If I'm found in a ditch next week, it'll either be Putin's orders, or Farage sending around BNP lite 'Vic and the boys' - maybe a joint contract. lol

W e are being set up here. The rise in Eurosceptism is a threat, so bind the EU citizens together by frightening them with a war with Russia.

So transparent,

Even the editor of the Huffington P out has now declared himself to be no longer a Europhiles.

tide is turning.

staying up late tonight Claig in the good company of Mr Neil and SadManOnaTrain If so, I'll join you

P.S. I think you'll find in Africa, China is the partner of choice there.

WetAugust ... if you're staying up late tonight, ask the delusion nurse to up your meds.

'staying up late tonight Claig in the good company of Mr Neil and SadManOnaTrain If so, I'll join you'

Absolutely!

I wouldn't miss such fun for the world. It will be priceless to watch Grant Shapps and the gang try to spin their way out of this one.

But expect the metropolitan media to launch some diversionary news reports in the next few days to try and help the metropolitan elite out.

It was more interesting when the Lib Dems were the protest party of choice; there is no spin for a by-election needed, unless governments whether giving election sweeties or taking them away, USUALLY win them. D'uh.

Relabeling a spineless, boring, Tory backbencher worried about keeping his salary in 2015 - moving to a party without policies, is like a bad 'B-movie', as least the Lib Dems had policy conviction and have achieved something for the UK, by being big enough to form a coalition in our time of need, for party loss.

UKIP MEP's at great expense, not so much, and this isn't a 'kipper anyway, still waiting for the first.

the spinning has already started on Twitter. Two rumours doing the rounds. 1) that Ed will be asked to stand down if the Lab vote is less than 11,000 and 2) that Cam will consider it a victory if Tories lose by less than 2,000

Both utterly deluded wishes of desperate parties.

Think the Loony will do quite well in this one

the Labour MP for Islington visited a Rochester today and has set the Twittersphere alight by posting a picture of a white van parked on the driveway of a house that is displaying England flags in the window
as though it's so e Dort of morbid curiosity that she us sneering at.

They have a death wish these oh so metropolitan Labour types

Yes, just seen it on Guido Fawkes.
Why tweet that?

You have to go back to Lord Ashcroft's findings

"But these are often part of a greater dissatisfaction with the way they see things going in Britain: schools, they say, can’t hold nativity plays or harvest festivals any more; you can’t fly a flag of St George any more; you can’t call Christmas Christmas any more; you won’t be promoted in the police force unless you’re from a minority; you can’t wear an England shirt on the bus; you won’t get social housing unless you’re an immigrant; you can’t speak up about these things because you’ll be called a racist; you can’t even smack your children.

"All of these examples, real and imagined, were mentioned in focus groups by UKIP voters and considerers to make the point that the mainstream political parties are so in thrall to the prevailing culture of political correctness that they have ceased to represent the silent majority."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/9752197/Lord-Ashcroft-voters-defecting-to-Ukip-because-they-are-fed-up-with-political-correctness.html

Yes, comrade WetWipes.

Clearly the turnout will be worth anal-ising as well, as if 300 UKIP purple minions walking the streets for 50-odd days trying to drum up support hasn't increased the overall by-election average (for-against), nothing will.

No chance of a Scotland type anti UKIP surprise, where people have said they'll vote UKIP just to be left alone - but it will be interesting to see how many bothered to vote at all.

Comrade Claig .. "dissatisfaction" is not news, especially in recession/austere times, look across Europe, but if the voters here want to experiment with their livelyhoods in 2015, then so be it, - as UKIP hasn't got a clue or record about anything else, OTHER than anti politics.

Expect some news headlines to try and knock the UKIP likely win off tomorrow's front pages.

'"dissatisfaction" is not news'

It is not dissatisfaction. It is about whose side are the metropolitan elite on?

Very few are satisfied 'with their lot', in a honking great recession, but clearly in the UK they have taken the recovery for granted.

For the numpty fifth time, their are the "metropolitan elites' who were in power and made most of our problems worse, and others that stopped the rot and started a recovery - you can neither measure wealth or pay the mortgage with metropolitan elite-ness, it mean sod-all-to-a-jam-tart in every day life, no mater what 'kipper anti political propaganda designed to spread dissatisfaction wants us to believe.

In Russia I'd guess its a far bigger issue, and if you and the Wet ones had your way, we'd be part of the Russian Federation, any eeeeeeeverything would be just fine, as we'd be up to our knees in vodka.

Claig

hardly enough posts left on the old Reckless thread to see us through the night so I have started a new thread. Rochester and Strood Latest

Great. We need lots of room to analyse the historic consequences and to celebrate

Isitmebut Thu 20-Nov-14 14:48:28

P.S. I think you'll find in Africa, China is the partner of choice there

True, they are, despite the US having military bases in 50 African nations. The difference is, China goes in to build roads, schools and hospitals, the US goes in to put a puppet dictator in charge.

it is about democracy, what the majority of people in the Ukraine wants

Fair enough. How about the People of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea? Or are their views not important because they voted overwhelmingly to stay Russian?

Of course the views of Eastern Ukraine are important, but if their need to be next door in a different State is so great, they should be using the Russian equivalent of Pickfords to travel one-way - rather than be an excuse for Putin's Russian military vehicles, coming in from the other way.

Re Africa, you are correct that China buying up and sending back to China the world natural resources are building the infrastucture to help them do so for many years too come, until gone.

But to-date no European leader has used Africa as an excuse to invade their European neighbour, especially one that has already been part of a Russian federation, had the tee-shirt, and then wanted to be independent.