Poroshenko says Ukraine ready for total war against Russia

[claig]

I dismissed a lot of Poroshenko's and Yatsenyuk's statements in the past because they tended to be exaggerations and full of hyperbole, but this time I think it is real. I think they must have been told to go ahead.

"Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko today said he is ready for 'total war' against Russia as he claimed the crisis in eastern Europe is more serious than the threat from Islamic State.
...
'I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops,' he said.

'We are prepared for a scenario of total war.

'We don't want war, we want peace and we are fighting for European values.'

He told Germany's Bild newspaper the unfolding drama on the edge of the EU was more critical than the Islamic State defiance.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2838094/Ukrainian-president-says-country-ready-war-Russia-says-crisis-dangerous-spread-ISIS.html

Germany is usually the major restraining influence in conflict with Russia, but from what Merkel said the other day, I think everything has been decided and everyone is on board.

"In a foreign policy speech in Sydney on Sunday following the G20 summit, Merkel sounded deeply despondent about Putin’s policies and behaviour and gloomy about the prospects of forcing a strategic shift from the Kremlin.

“This is not just about Ukraine. It’s about Moldova, it’s about Georgia,” said Merkel. “If things carry on like this … we will need to raise the issue of Serbia, of the states in the western Balkans.”

It was the first time a European leader had warned that Putin was seeking to press Balkan states to his side in the worsening tug-of-war in Europe between Moscow and Brussels.

“The Ukraine crisis is truly not a regional affair,” she said, voicing incredulity that Putin’s campaign could take place 25 years after Europe’s division into two blocs ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall. “It affects us all … how can something like this happen in the middle of Europe? Old thinking about spheres of influence, trampling international law, must not succeed.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

NATO would never allow Russia in, unless it became politically stable with a Western type democracy. They still have missiles pointing at each other, including in the Ukraine.

Lweji, why would a new Cold War suit Putin?
Putin wants to trade and sell the West oil and build pipelines to sell it to Europe. The whole sanctions strategy which Germany has not fully been behind and which Italy is not gung ho about is aimed to hurt Russian and Putin to force him to roll over. A Cold War suits those who want to harm Russia economically and cut it off from Germany and Europe, to isolate it.
Putin doesn't want that. He wants trade.

But the really significant thing is this thing about Ukraine saying they are ready for "total war" against Russia. The last people who wanted "total war" against Russia were the Nazis and they lost the war against Russia. In a "total war" against Russia, Ukraine would lose, which means that they will need help and that may drag us in to a war with Russia. And if there is a war with Russia, I think China will have to choose sides, because if Russia is defeated, China will probably be next. So this could end up as a world war and all because Ukraine wants "total war". But of course, it can't be Ukraine that wants that because they know they would lose. So why are they saying it?

I think they are saying it because Russia has been playing an underhand war, saying they send aid, but not really, and denying there are troops in the Ukraine.
Might as well call their hand.

I do think a state of effective cold war helps Putin cling further to power, as he can blame the West for whatever happens. Cold war still means trade, but it means Putin can tighten control over his own country.

The Ukrainian government has said lots of over the top things so this may be just another one, just bluster. But what I think is different is that Merkel seems to have now changed her tune, which seems to suggest that Germany has finally been persuaded to come on board, and if that really is the case, then the Ukrainians' "total war" may be the start of something bigger that involves more than just them and drags in us.

That is something I am actually afraid of, although I don't think Putin actually wants it.

'I think they are saying it because Russia has been playing an underhand war, saying they send aid, but not really, and denying there are troops in the Ukraine.
Might as well call their hand. '

Yes, I agree with you, but "calling their hand" would still then be just bluster because Ukraine can't beat Russia without help from the West.

'I do think a state of effective cold war helps Putin cling further to power, as he can blame the West for whatever happens'

Except that it is the West that is pushing for sanctions, with Germany seemingly going along reluctantly, and their aim is to cut Russia off and isolate it which doesn't suit Putin, and is aimed to hurt him economically so that he will eventually be toppled by the oligarchs.

'That is something I am actually afraid of, although I don't think Putin actually wants it.'

I don't think he wants it.
Who dies wants it?

Farage doesn't. Did you listen to his speech where he said
"Have we taken leave of our senses? Do we actually want to have a war with Putin? Because if we do we're certainly going about it the right way"

I certainly don't listen to Farage. :)

Has any politician told Poroshenko to tone his rhetoric down, have we heard anyone say to him "you and whose army" or is he relying on us to help him out?

'I certainly don't listen to Farage.'

You would do well to do so. The man is a statesman beyond compare. He was against the disaster in Libya, against the push for bombing Syria, against bombing Iraq now, he said the "EU had blood on its hands" over Ukraine and that the EU had encouraged what was effectively a coup d'etat. He said that the Euro would lead to economic collapse for some countries and the resurgence of far right parties such as Golden Dawn.

Every time I listen to him, I am staggered at the sagacity and independence of thought and common sense, so different to all the rest. I think many others are seeing that too.

Now Poroshenko has been challenged to a duel. No, really.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11241599/How-to-solve-the-Ukraine-crisis-pistols-at-dawn.html

....which rather strengthens the impression that a lot of this is posturing.

However, posturing is dangerous. Surely we haven't forgotten all of the 100-year anniversary stuff from this summer (outbreak of WWI), which showed that!

Agree pluCaChange, posturing is dangerous, because someone's bluff may be called and people may not be able to back down. Brinkmanship with talk of "total war" is over the top.

Interesting article that is very close to my views.
Funnily enough I don't need to listen to politicians. I tend to make up my mind from the news.

Putin has chosen to send military planes to the other side of Europe, where I live (partly why I don't bother with Farage), invading foreign and NATO airspace.
And I think the new cold war will be (is, actually, at least to a certain extent) being played through muslim extremism as well.

"But the similarities can be overdone, a senior government insider in Helsinki said, arguing that Russia is economically weak, deprived of foreign investment, beset by capital flight, and almost wholly dependent for cash on energy exports at a time when the international oil price is dropping. “Russia’s actions in Ukraine are more a show of weakness and fear. This is not expansionism, this is insecurity,” the insider said.

On the other hand, if backed into a corner, Putin might prove to be an unpredictable opponent. “Putin is no Gorbachev; he is not a guy who is going to give up. He will not go quietly. Remember, this is a global nuclear power we are talking about,” he continued."

This is from the Guardian article you linked to and I think it is correct. Russia is weaker than the West and the West is trying to choke its economy first hoping that Putin will roll over. Putin is being backed into a corner, but he may not be the type of person to roll over which is why this is a dangerous time.

'And I think the new cold war will be (is, actually, at least to a certain extent) being played through muslim extremism as well.'
Do you think it is on the side of one of the two sides?

'Funnily enough I don't need to listen to politicians.'

Good point, there are a lot of spinners about. There are very few who are different to all the rest.

I thought that attempting to humiliate Putin at the G-whatever was a childish and ill conceived idea. Image us everything go Putin so this will not be forgiven

I elect people to run this country, not to start wars with other countries.

Absolutely, WetAugust.

We have too many puppets in politics. They all coordinated among themselves and didn't go to the Sochi Olympics celebration, they all tried to humiliate Putin at the G20 and left him on a dinner table nearly on his own. Respect to the leader of Brazil who was the only one to sit with him. They will all pretend that they are going to boycott the World Cup when it is in Russia. It is almost as if someone tells them all what to do and that they are not independent. That is why I like the UK Independence Party, no one tells them what to do.

Even the members of the UK Independence Party are independent and no one can tell them what to do either. Farage has said it is like "trying to herd cats". Everyone is independent.

And the most independent journalist that the country has got wrote this back in March 2014

"We're being dragged into a new Cold War by a puffed-up bullfrog (and I don't mean President Putin)"

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2587118/PETER-HITCHENS-Were-dragged-new-Cold-War-puffed-bullfrog-I-don-t-mean-President-Putin.html

The conspiracy theorists would say that it's in the interests of arms and technology companies to heighten tension in order to create a market for their arms, weaponry, planes, ships etc. Countries get rich during wars as it gives industry a boost.

I don't like what is happening right now

Claig and WetAugust …. So our two pro UKIP, pro anarchy, pro ‘peoples army’, antil British elites, anti EU -are ALSO pro Russia and Putin, go figure – so what with the thousands of posts on the Palestinian threads. I’m starting to wonder how many posting on Mumsnet actually live in the UK.

Both of you post about ‘the importance of democracy’ and promote ‘the people that have had enough’, BUT THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO APPLY TO THE UKRAINE.

All your pro Russian/Putin rhetoric seems to ignore that a Ukraine, independent from old Russia in 1991 after old style Russian comrades similar to Putin, tried to overthrow Russia’s reformer Gorbachev, and has a population as follows;

Ukraine (ethnic) 78%

Russian 17%

Other 5%

So why shouldn’t the rest of the world help the people of the Ukraine against a Putin, who thought his ‘long game’ of being the main supplier of energy to Europe would keep them quiet, while he reversed Gorbachev’s reforms state-by-state?

So why should the rest of the world see a Russian leader, trying to install Russian administrations in the Ukraine one way or another, and sends FOUR battleships to Australia before he arrives – is not only ‘a sandwich short of a picnic’, but with his heightened/increased military threats (since the Hitchins oracle spoke), but needs to be responded to robustly.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/highly-disturbing-russian-military-strategy-causing-dangerous-military-encounters--report-9850549.html

*So based on the FACTS, is there some dodgy reason why you are BOTH for a known aggressive Russian leader, installing a puppet Russian government in Ukraine AGAINST the wishes of ‘the majority of people’ over there - yet have a problem with a legitimate political system here, where the problems are being fixed as quick as possible - but write hundreds of posts to complain ‘the people have had enough’ of those economic/financial/social improvements?

As to Peter Hitchins, lets just say he’s reports on Russia and Cameron are less than balanced, looking at this quote within your link.
“I hated the old USSR as an evil empire. But, having lived in Moscow, I feel a strong affection for post-communist Russia and count Russians as good friends. That does not make me an apologist for Mr Putin. I have repeatedly condemned him for his suppression of opposition and the many evil things done by his state. I can see his faults and do not pretend they do not exist.”

If Cameron is a “bullfrog” for being a spokesman for the EU countries, some with borders and energy reliance on Russia so often need to politically remain quiet in the background, then what does that make Mr Farage?

As Mr Farage applauded Putin/Russia for supporting minority sect Syria’s Assad versus the Sunni majority being murdered by the state (which gave rise to ISIS), and denounced the EU for supporting the majority ethnic Ukrainians against Russian puppet control – I’d suggest that makes Nigel more of an undemocratic British Bull TOAD’, full of BS.

Ukraine's boundaries have been shifting for centuries.

I analyse situations by undertaking my own research. I don't follow party lines. It's called independent thinking. You should try it sometime

No wars.Only exception being invasion of our sovereign territory. Object strongly go UK soldiers being used to fight other peoples wars.

'Both of you post about ‘the importance of democracy’ and promote ‘the people that have had enough’, BUT THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO APPLY TO THE UKRAINE.'

Because in the Ukraine, the EU backed what was effectively a coup, aided by Neo-nazis, who toppled an elected President when a democratic election was less than one year away. The reason the EU did it is because this elected Ukrainian President had decided to reject the EU deal and go with the better Russian deal. So now over 4000 people have died and more than half a million have been displaced, and we are told that Ukraine now wants "total war" against Russia, which they are bound to lose unless the West is dragged in to helping them.

That is why our true statesman, Nigel Farage, has said "the EU has blood on its hands over Ukraine".

And when we talk about the "importance of democracy", we mean here in the UK, not in every other country on the planet. We are not in fighting the battles of people all over the world.

"If Cameron is a “bullfrog” for being a spokesman for the EU countries, some with borders and energy reliance on Russia so often need to politically remain quiet in the background, then what does that make Mr Farage?"

It makes Farage a statesman who does not want to involve the UK in foreign wars or escalation in tension against other countries who do not threaten us.

'I’d suggest that makes Nigel more of an undemocratic British Bull TOAD’, full of BS.'

You are entitled to your opinion, but as ever you are wrong, and the British people disagree with you as will be shown tonight when the people of Rochester's votes are counted.

Hmmm .... 'Russian' in stereo.

I ask AGAIN, what do the MAJORITY of UKrainians want, to be a Russian annex, to have a Russian puppet heading up their government, or to be independent of Russia as per their 1991 separatist constitution?

Surely if the borders for the last 100-years were 'negotiable' in 2014 by every leader with a big gun, that would lead to perpetual wars.

And Farage wants UKIP style democracy here, full of Russian style anti western establishment propaganda, but not in Syria or the Ukraine. Got it.

'I ask AGAIN, what do the MAJORITY of UKrainians want, to be a Russian annex, to have a Russian puppet heading up their government, or to be independent of Russia as per their 1991 separatist constitution?'

They are not a Russian annex. They have had a coup and an EU puppet now heads up their government instead of a democratically elected President who was elected by the people of Ukraine and not the EU.

They are independent of Russia and apparently they now want "total war" with Russia and laughingly tell us that they are fighting for European values. They may be fighting for EU bigwigs' values but Farage says they are not fighting for his and ours.