Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

I don't think there's anything wrong in asking. Debate is always good.
In many areas various forms of clothing are banned for one reason or another, hooded tops/baseball caps /helmets etc (I'm not implying women cover themselves to rob banks or shops).

I saw on the news recently that they have brought out a version for theatre operations, which makes me wonder how they'll know who they are operating on?

My family are of various races and religions and I studied many before choosing which path to follow. I consider myself to be very tolerant and always open to learning more about the people around me, unfortunately the feeling doesn't appear to be mutual.

Spidermama said exactly what I think, but more eloquently than I could have.

I feel offended when (male) muslim clients refuse to shake hands with me.

When 9/11 happened I started shopping in specifically Muslim shops in High Wycombe in a one-woman attempt to show that not all the non muslims tarred the muslims in the town as nutty terrorists. After a few times, though I noticed that they wouldn't look me in the eye when serving me, and were generally very offhand with me compared to the way they treated muslim customers, and I stopped.

I don't really know what the answer is, but I do feel that Muslims need to take into account and adopt Western models of politeness.

I agree with Spidermama too

My children find women who cover their faces in veils frightening. I have friends from all cultures, am in a mixed marriage and am the child of two immigrant families, but feel I cannot easily talk to women when their faces are covered with veils. It makes me uncomfortable, particularly if their menfolk are with them. JS made the point that it does not help community cohesion when people segregate themsleves in this way. It may not be politically correctness at its best, but is a valid point, I feel.

I also don't like the feeling that no one is allowed to utter any criticism of Islam, for fear of death threats. Security has been stepped up for JS. A catholic nun was murdered and churches burnt because of the Pope's (entirely wrong and ill judged in my view) comments, which he did apologise for.

I didnt' say they wore the wretched, horrible things all the time. But if you are out with your children you cannot kiss your children, smile at them - anything. You can't sit in a cafe and have a cup of tea. your speech is muffled, you cannot breathe fresh air. the whole culture of which full veiling is a part leads in many cases - as people have said here - to a horrible view of women which DOES affect other women. Of course veiling should not be made illegal in public, but that doesn't stop me thinking it is a bad thing, which is my right.

if he is racist towards other students figroll I would report him like a shot.As well as for his treatment of you.

I can't decide at all what I think about this. One part of me hates seeing totally veiled/covered up women on the streets in Britain although it didn't bother me seeing the same thing in muslim countries. But the people I know in the UK who do wear the veil are lovely lovely people and I'd hate to think of them being forced to stop wearing it. Completely reasonable to ask but not to demand.
btw in morocco and I think some other 'muslim' countries, women can't even wear a headscarf if they hold public office, so we are doing better than them for tolerance
just an aside, obviously another personal opinion story, but to balance up the 'rude muslim men' side of things, I teach a lot of community classes and all the blokes there are super polite and respectful to me. I wonder if the rude muslim boy in education thing is more of a teenage boy thing and less connected to religion?

And people here keep saying nobody else gets told how to dress (putting aside the fact that JS didn't 'tell' anybody to do anything) but that's just not true. Zillions of hotels, restaurants, schools, workplaces have dress codes that people are expected to adhere to - men to wear jackets, women to not wear mini-skirts, children to wear uniforms etc etc. Even gyms make stipulations such as men to wear tops (thank God!). You aren't allowed to wear a motorcyle helmet in most business premises and if someone came to work in an office wearing something covering their face like Michael Jackson they would be told to take it off immediately.

Yes Sorell but the muslim women in question aren't beholden to Jack Straw in any way, he represents them in Parliament.

Will he choose which constituents he represents according to dress code I wonder?

Yes, he represents ALL his constuents, but that doesn't mean be cannot make any remotely negative comments about anyone, does it? David Cameron's constituency may well include people who dress their three year olds in 'porn star in training' t-shirts, but it doesn't mean he was wrong for criticising inappropriately sexualised clothing for small children, does it?
MPs represent their entire consituency, which may be full of people whose values, political ideas etc they abhor and will criticise as part of their job. In this case, he expressed a preference that, when he is talking to someone, he sees their facial expressions, but if they refused, he would accept that. It's hardly refusing to represent them, is it?

I was brought up to feel guilty about being English but it has taken me all my forty years to allow myself to realise there's much to be proud of.

We were the first European country formally to abolish slavery (1804) even though the practice had already fallen out of use several years earlier.

We fought and died to free ourselves from the divine right of kings (Magna Carta and The English Civil War) and fought and died again to free ourselves from the religeous fundamentalist opression of Cromwell's Puritans (who incidentally had us all wearing black, white and grey, veiling women and banning singing, dancing, music and all forms of entertainment) We managed to come through our own religeous genocides (Bloody Mary etc)...

My point is we're not a blank canvass so it's reasonable to expect people to be mindful if not respectful of values and traditions of this country.

To put it bluntly, in this country it is traditional that you don't cover your face when people talk to you. Or if you must, then at least let us complain about how it makes us feel without accusing people of racism.

I even remove sunglasses to talk to people as I'd feel rude leaving them on. Yet I'm expected to respect someone covered from head to foot and if I don't then it's my fault and I should seek to get to know them better.

Go Spider Go!!!

totally agree spidermama

My issue with the full veiled dress is I struggle to understand why such an apparantly enlightened religion promotes what I consider to be oppression of women by making them dress in this way. Whilst it does not state in the koran it is actively encouraged by the elders therefore it is part of the religion.

I am also surprised to find so many of you out there convinced that the media especially the bbc is anti-muslim and inciteful of anti-moslem feeling? The BBC marked the 5 year anniversary of 9/11 with a series of programmes aimed at giving sympathy to suicide bombers, and placing virtually the entire blame for the attacks on the americans!!!

Well, maybe it's because I'm not English, but I don't have the slightest problem with talking to women wearing the veil. And my children have absolutely no problem with it either.

Can I just add my support to spidermama's excellent posts.
We need politicians like you.

Thankyou Mrs.Do.

Nobody is saying JS or anyone else cannot request a woman to remove her veil. By the same token the person should imho accept it if the woman refuses to comply.

Spidermama, as I said my dd is/was terrified at the sight of a fireman in full gear, I took her to the firestation and showed her that he was really a lovely man underneath and nothing scary.
This is the way I think we'll expel the fear (from children at least), about seeing a veiled woman walk past. As I mentioned I am definitely going to be getting together with a few other Muslim women and I shall try and see if the local primary schools will allow us to come and speak about our religion and dress to some of the classes.....
I also think that sometimes we do tend to transfer our fears onto our children.

Yes there are uniforms in places like hotels and such, and I'm sure if these women worked there they'd adhere to the rules.

Not all muslim men are racist, misogynist would be rapists. I could give many many many examples of being spat at, told to go home paki(I have not a single relative in pakistan), I've had my door battered down in the middle of the night, I've been threatened with physical viloence (for doing nothing more than walking down the street), and the perpatrators were not muslim.....and my crime appears to be a merely of existing.

The arguments here keep changing, I personally think, that a woman should be allowed to walk down the street wearing what she likes, and I also think that these women who choose to dress as they will, do not need liberating by force. The KKK uniform is not comparable, I know of no instance where a muslim woman has hung anyone from a tree, or left burning crosses on someones front garden.....

As for engaging with these women at the school gates, those of you who are too scared, don't leave them be, it's your perogative. Personally I'm going to be reading the complete works of Tolstoy in order to avoid interacting with the school gate mums (the tales on MN have ensured this).

It is a great shame I feel that the English are not allowed to feel good about celebrating being English.
The other nations of the UK. quite happily wave the flags for their country and say how proud they are of being Irish, Welsh or Scottish and how they are doing this that and the other for their country.
I get the feeling though that if an English person were to do the same people would think they were somehow spporters of the BNP or something similar.
I think the English have almost been forced to deny their national identity in order to become a multicultural melting pot where many other cultures are celebrated, but where Englishness is to be stamped upon and eradicated in order to appease the other cultures living here.
I do hope this changes.

fuzzywuzzy my point is that when you are spat at etc by non muslims it is a racist attack but when muslim men abuse non muslims its not! why? i have just as much right to wear what i want as muslims do to wear veils or whatever, if i was in a muslim country i would respect their beliefs and cover up but im not in a muslim country and i will wear what i want and i shouldnt fear going out and getting abuse for it

If eloquent, independent Muslim women say, look, we want to wear the veil - then although that might not be the same choice I'd make - how can I not defend to the death their right to wear it? Even if, in my ideal world, they wouldn't make that choice?

And I am not persuaded by this argument that somehow your children being bothered is relevant. When I was little, I hated and was frightened of clowns, but I don't think anyone would have taken that as an argument for disbanding Billy Smart's circus.

Fuzzy in the end, arseholes are arseholes.

No one should suffer, as you have from a racist attack.

For that matter no-one should suffer, as my parents did, from having 'fuck off paki lover' sprayed on their back door, cpmplete with swastica, because they had the 'audacity' to welcome an asian family to the village.

but racism does cut both ways. Arseholes are arseholes, regardless of where the are born.

But the reason that we English can't celebrate our nationality has nothing to do with British Muslims. There are (mostly white) liberals in places that matter (Parliament, Whitehall, local authorities, the media) who hide their hatred for 'englishness' (if there is such a thing) and Christianity behind the guise of 'muliticulturalism'. They eradicate Christianity (around which much of our culture is based) and blame it on the demands of religious minorities. It isn't true that those of other faiths are offended by Christianity - have a look at the Shana Tova thread on the Religion topic.

And I don't think that we can possibly hold ourselves up as the model of emancipated liberal society. It is just a few weeks since we had an incredibly distressing mumsnet thread about all the women on here (myself included) who;ve been raped by men. How can we possibly pretend that we live in some kind of perfect feminist paradise?

Interesting point today in the press that some universities require that all face-obscuring items are removed before entry.

Religious clothing is usually exempt, but, as most Muslim scholars have said that full veils are not required religiously (as in The Koran does not decree that they are required) Full veils are also required to be removed.

I suppose this comes down to interpretation of The Koran?

Fuzzy whilst it's really sad and badly wrong that you had your door bashed down and were called a 'Paki', I don't feel it's relevant on this thread. My dh was queer bashed in Kennington Park, he and I have both been spat at, racially abused and threatened with violence during our five years living in Brixton.

I know Hackney is a great place to live in many ways but, like Brixton, has more than its fair share of violent loonies.

I'm not talking about these loonies but rather about ordinary, peace loving women like myself who have strived all their lives to be fair, inclusive and open minded.

I don't believe my children pick up their fear of the veiled women from me any more than I would have thought that your children are scared of firemen because they pick it up from you.

I think going into schools is a fantastic idea though and it's exactly the sort of bridge building, door opening, positive gesture which is so badly needed.