Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Thanks for the link, PJ. Done sth to my settings and can't preview links anymore.

If anyone is still labouring under the impression that Israel isn't racist or operating a policy of apartheid, there are plenty of links and examples further up this thread. And an article today on that very theme: touch.Latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80225008.

Very interesting piece here, too, bringing several strands from this thread together, eg bias in the media and the role of a divide and rule policy. Offers hope that independent thinkers can prevail despite the rise of 'Murdocracy'! www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/breaking-the-last-taboo-gaza-and-the-threat-of-world-war,6901.

Messed up with links today sorry - you'd have to google "does the term 'apartheid' fit Israel? Of course it does" and "breaking the last taboo: gaza and the threat of world war. Have to get back on the PC...

for those claiming israel is not a racist country and isn't practicing genocide: www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/15/israelis-social-media/

TheHoneyBadger - that page that you linked to makes for horrible reading. However, it is a bit like showing the social media messages of BNP members and saying that it speaks for Britain, its government and the British people. And I'm afraid that I've seen just as nasty stuff (really nasty) on social media from extremists on the Palestinian side as well. The moderate majority of people on both sides of the conflict would despise these extremists, as we do. But you do not demonise a whole nation on the basis of small number of narrow minded individuals.

a nation who pays people to spread propaganda on social media cannot be compared to a tiny, extremist group like the BNP who are not even allowed air time on tv in this country.

and i believe the article quoted in there, concluding that genocide was acceptable, was published in a national respected newspaper. not quite the same thing as a bnp leaflet is it?

it really does seem that israel's government and it's supporters really don't understand the concept of true equivalency or proportionality. there's a lot of apples and pears equations going on.

also i don't even think that anti immigration can be compared meaningfully with racial hatred for a native people. i don't agree with the bnp personally but the only equivalent of it in the israeli situation would be a group protesting against the right to return immigration policy. it has no similarity beyond using racist rhetoric to a desire to destroy a people who are native to the land and being ethnically cleansed.

Racist individuals just a fringe minority? Remember all this? electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-genocide-palestinians-gets-thousands-facebook-likes

I recall Netanyahu getting approval ratings of over 90%.

fringe minority?

Certainly this is not true of Israel's policy of stealing homes and land from Palestinians and building Illegal Settlements.

TheHoneyBadger - I understand that you prefer to see the worst in Israel, rather than see the only country in the Middle East where Arabs enjoy full proportional democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion.
No respectable media source has given any credence to wild name-calling about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Most media sources require evidence. (Although it is a clearly established fact that the substantial Jewish population has been expelled in its entirety from Arab lands.)

"the only country in the Middle East where Arabs enjoy full proportional democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion."

I wonder if you imagine the Israel-controlled Occupied Territories and the many illegal Settlements meet these criteria.

oh believe me i'd really rather see the good in israel - i'm not going to imagine it though - i want to SEE it, in its actions.

not sure how much freedom of thought and action ya da ya da there is in a country where you can be arrested for protesting against the slaughter of civilians or trying to protect arabs from being evicted from their homes to make way for brand new immigrants to move into them.

i'm afraid given the evidence what you say is delusional.

and again just massive hey look over here! response. we're not talking about other middle eastern countries. we're talking about israel.

you, and your ilk, never respond to actual points made but instead try to flip it to look over here or, as i said, false equivalencies and spin.

Sergeant, the Orr Commission, headed by an Israeli judge, into several deaths (mostly arab israelis) in 2000, is summarised by the virtual Jewish library, whose leanings you can infer from their strap line (everything you need to know from Anti Semitism to Zionism). Even they cant avoid the key finding that "action must be focused on giving true equality to the country's Arab citizens. ... The state must work to wipe out the stain of discrimination against its Arab citizens in its various forms and behaviours.". It's quite revealing about police abuse in particular. Clearly all those Facebook 'likers' and people you think are exceptions to the 'moderate majority' are blissfully unaware of any such action or work that has been carried out (yeah, right) since then.

*sergeantmajor

TheHoneyBadger - I understand that you prefer to see the worst in Israel, rather than see the only country in the Middle East where Arabs enjoy full proportional democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion.
No respectable media source has given any credence to wild name-calling about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Most media sources require evidence. (Although it is a clearly established fact that the substantial Jewish population has been expelled in its entirety from Arab lands.)*

Thats just a load of bollocks. There is not much freedom of speech or thought.. And the arabs live in slums and treated like third rate citizens with sub standards schools healthcare employment rate and homes.

You can praise it all you like it doesnt change the fact that israel is wiping palestine off the map... Its All the more shameful that the pop has grown by 600% but the land is shrinking everyday. :-(

A few enlightening facts for the eternal deniers.

According to the Anti defamation league (ADL), there were 751 anti Jewish racist incidents reported in the US in 2013 (nonviolent and violent).
According to UN office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, there were 399 anti Arab racist incidents in Israel reported in the same year, but including violent incidents only.
Bearing in mind the respective populations (317.3 m is USA vs 8.1 m in Israel), that gives 1 anti Jewish incident per 422,500 people in US c.f. 1anti Arab incident per 20,400 people in Israel. Don't forget the anti Arab incidents don't include nonviolent incidents. Apples and pears. Then figure in the fact that these figures don't even include any incidents involving Israeli soldiers!!! Apples, pears and bananas.
So, even comparing partial data for the anti arab incidents, racist incidents are 20 times more common against Arab Israelis than against Jewish Americans.

I defy anyone to mention anti Semitism again and how it 'justifies' Israel's 'need' to defend its citizens and provide a place of security for the persecuted. The double standards are just jaw dropping.

BTW, it's not just an anti Arab thing. www.m.youtube.com/watch?v=UqWTSvkBpx4. (ADL silently supports Israeli racism)

The contrast is between Israel, where there is equality legislation and commissions addressing racism against Arab Israelis, versus Gaza, where there are no Jews allowed (and it would be life threatening for a Jew to go there).

The contrast is between Israel, where protest is permitted and there is a free press where acts of racism can be reported, versus Gaza where dissenters are strung up on a crane for all to see, or dragged through the streets by the ankles from a motorbike.

Or contrast Israel, where Arabs make up 20% of the population, and - guess what? - 20% of the government and 20% university population. No such diversity amongst their neighbours, but that would be tricky with their no-Jews-allowed society.

Or contrast Israel, where all religions are freely permitted and the holy sites of all are protected, versus Palestinian territories, where Christian Arabs and other minorities are persecuted. There was a demonstration in Israel during the Gaza war this summer by Israeli Christian Arabs in support of the IDF military action, as they see Israel as protecting their interests.

Contrast Israel, home of the world's most vibrant and colourful Pride festival with Palestine, where gay love dare not speak its name.

I don't approve of Israeli incursions into the Palestinian territories but remember that Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza just a few years back. It dragged its Jewish residents forcibly from their homes. So the policy has not been to enlarge territory as principle. That was a major withdrawal, in terms of land, and significance. Had the Gazans built a peaceful society under their own government, perhaps there would have been a withdrawal from the West Bank too. The region would look so different today.

PigletJohn "I wonder if you imagine the Israel-controlled Occupied Territories and the many illegal Settlements meet these criteria."

The Palestinian Authority is the government there. Go ask them.

While you're about it, match these criteria in Hamas-controlled Gaza and see what you get.

QnBoudi - the Jews are a tiny minority in the US and they enjoy much more acceptance than the communities in Europe. However, it is a meaningless comparison anyhow. There can be racism suffered by any one group and it would not take away from the suffering of another group - and I do mean this to cut both ways.

As I've mentioned, I am in favour of a two-state solution. Not that this would eradicate racism in the region or worldwide but it would provide a safe haven for each nation from where they can defend themselves and control their own destiny.

"The Palestinian Authority is the government there."

Hahaha

And who has the power to remove or facilitate Illegal Settlements?

I don't understand the whole banging on about gay pride and Israel - as if Israel is a protector of homosexuals worldwide! Forget worldwide, what it is doing to the palestinian gays is quite vicious.
Someone also mentioned Palestinians can be treated in Israeli hospitals - there is a price to pay for that too.

'Any information that might enable extortion of an individual is considered relevant information. Whether said individual is of a certain sexual orientation, cheating on his wife, or in need of treatment in Israel or the West Bank – he is a target for blackmail'

'If you’re homosexual and know someone who knows a wanted person – and we need to know about it – Israel will make your life miserable. If you need emergency medical treatment in Israel, the West Bank or abroad – we searched for you. The state of Israel will allow you to die before we let you leave for treatment without giving information on your wanted cousin'

mondoweiss.net/2014/09/blackmails-palestinian-informants#sthash.zClB3DA8.dpuf

Sargeantmajor
I accept that it might be 'life threatening' for a Jew to visit Gaza, but not for the reasons you imply. Gideon levy has regularly visited Gaza and the only threat to his life has come from Israeli hate mail. Not what I think you were acknowledging!

The statistics I posted are not meaningless to anyone interested in proportionality and perspective, rationality and reasonableness. The state of Israel has played a massive role in feeding fears of persecution, with for example the nonsensical warning signs (written only in hebrew) at entry points to Gaza. Seems to be working, sadly.

If you still want to insist that Israel is a highly tolerant and fair-minded society, you might want to take a look at David Sheen's (literally gasp-inducing) talk (m.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Y5dcaCyv4 - israel's war on africans) and explain where he's gone wrong in his analysis. He even accounts for the fact that, as you point out above, the USA is so accepting of minorities!

Sergeant, you quoted someone as saying:

^"Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or
anyone else....^

Have you looked at some of laws?
There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures. Some of the laws also violate the rights of Palestinians living in the 1967 OPT and Palestinian refugees. (Source, mondoweiss)

Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa. They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa

50 discriminatory laws reflects apartheid, not equality. What's worse is that many of those laws came into effect in the last 10-15 years.

Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.

My previous post shows that there is a price attached to this. My posts on earlier threads details the obstacles created by Israel and impact on children when trying to get them a permit into Israeli hospitals.

In Israel, women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.

My previous posts shows that Israel offers no safe haven for Palestinian gays.

the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women

the fact is that Palestinian gays are barred from applying for asylum in Israel.

Israel is one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees

Are you serious? What state of delusion does Israel keep it's supporters under? Human Rights Watch has reported that 99.9% of Sudanese asylum claims have been rejected. further appalling details here

“Israel is creating a kind of moral schizophrenia in world Jewry. In the outside world the welfare of Jewry depends on the maintenance of secular, non-racial, pluralistic societies. In Israel, Jewry finds itself defending a society in which mixed marriages cannot be legalized, in which the ideal is racial and exclusionist.” ( I.F.Stone, US journalist)