Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Sergeantmajor.. You still havent specified which policies in this thread are meant to annihilate israel..?

I'll ask it a third time:
Would anyone like to say that, despite being anti-Israel, they wish for its continued existence, as a Jewish state in the Middle East?

Piglet: thats because it is a deliberate ploy.. Inorder to defend and deflect from israel.. Accusations of anti semitism; pro destruction of israel; extremists; pro hamas etc etc are flung about in the hope that enough mud is thrown to deflect from the real issues.. Which is essentially israels criminal behaviour! Note how those post with clear evidence of israels crimes are pointedly looked over and ignored... And deflected with false accusations!

I'll ask it a third time:
Would anyone like to say that, despite being anti-Israel, they wish for its continued existence, as a Jewish state in the Middle East?

Happy to answer your question once youve answered mine.

"I'll ask it a third time:
Would anyone like to say that, despite being anti-Israel..."

I wonder who this question is addressed to?

If you'd like to address it to "people who are critical of actions of the State of Israel" I for one could give you my answer. But I have a feeling that would be too moderate for you, and you have convinced yourself that all people who are, for example, opposed to the continued theft of land and destruction of homes, must in your opinion be hell-bent on the annihilation of Israel.

quote from you SM: *One of the positions that I find so hard to understand from the anti-Israel voice on this thread is why they claim simultaneously:

• Israel is not under threat
• Israel should be annihilated*

how am i falsely attributing this to you when you literally said it?

oh and quote again from SM: "I'll ask it a third time:
Would anyone like to say that, despite being anti-Israel, they wish for its continued existence, as a Jewish state in the Middle East?"

we still haven't heard who these 'anti israel' people are? until you clarify that it is very tricky. you can ask it as many times as you like for example and never get an answer if in fact you're addressing a crowd who are not anti israel.

it's like me going on an anti wife battering thread and asking, 'how many of you men hating anti marriage people believe that men should be anihilated'.

clearly my question would make no sense. to equate being against domestic violence with hating men and wanting to see them exterminated would clearly be rather silly. either as a deliberate derailing or attempt to stop being seeing the issue clearly or as some kind of bizarre inability to attach meaning to words.

Thank you, sergeant, for acknowledging you might have put the proverbial 2 & 2 together to come up with everyone being set on israel 'ceasing to exist'. Whilst I'm rather uncomfortable about the thread getting a bit heavy on 1 individual here, i really would like to explore potential solutions. It's just that i don't see how that can be done without going back to the root causes. I wonder what Sergeant thinks are the reasons for Hamas wishing Israel's annihilation?

or of how hamas came into existence or of why israel would have wished to mess things up just as hamas had agreed to give over political control of gaza.

SergeantMajor, have you seen this letter from a group of Israelis living in the US? It pretty much sums up my views on the matter. They write: “We ... want to re-examine what it means to be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. We argue that these terms might be one and the same. We believe that supporting equal rights for both peoples is the only way to build a better Israel and a better Palestine…”

So I suppose you could be pro-Israel but also oppose a great deal of what Israel does, if that makes sense.

The only thing I can remember seeing on all these threads that made me wonder if some posters questioned Israel’s right to exist was the following exchange on Thread 1:

TucsonGirl Sun 13-Jul-14 23:56:31
In a perfect world, what would you have Israel do, tomorrow morning? Up sticks and leave?

Yruapita Mon 14-Jul-14 00:07:41
Yes....they should leave and return the land to its rightful owners.

But given subsequent posts I think this meant Israel leaving Gaza and the West Bank not the whole of Israel.

Also from Thread 1

TheHoneyBadger Fri 11-Jul-14 16:59:04
stripped bare of emotion the reality is that you 'israel' has no right to be there and we had no right to give it and the world is paying a massive price for that mistake. but no one has paid a higher price than the palestinians.

TheHoneyBadger did you mean that Israel has no right to be in the West Bank and Gaza or no right to be there full stop - or that the way in which it came about was wrong but we can't change history now?

Another poster on Thread 1, unrealhousewife, also suggested that Israelis give up and relocate elsewhere.

I wrote about what I would do if I were Supreme Commander of the World here.

Another view of the media (www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-09-10/ex-reporter-media-tool-of-misinformation) in advance of tomorrow's radio 4 prog. Hoping it's not so annoying I have to switch off.

A couple of posters subscribe to the view that a port/airport in Gaza can't even be contemplated cos it would allow Hamas to rearm. I can't help after reading Jonathan Cook (www.Jonathan-cook.net/2014-09-03/defrauding-gaza-israels-vulture-culture/) that this is just a handy bit of propaganda to keep the fear and hatred going, so providing cover/distraction for the construction tycoons raking in EU cash. Blair and his buddies have probably got lots of fingers in those pies. Sickening. We so need to maintain the BDS actions.

Some more juice from the conspiracy theorists, this time re 9/11: original.antiwar.com/Justin/2014/08/28/did-certain-foreign-governments-facilitate-the-911-attacks/

Learning a bit more about how the media operates and how the pro-israeli lobby functions casts such claims in quite a different light.

without seeing the context of the discussion and relying only on my knowledge of my own opinions of the situation i'm presuming i meant the 'how it came about' aspect.

QnB yes i've read and watched stuff on those israeli art students and their having space on a floor of one of the towers (no rent paid) and full security clearance as well as their being detained afterwards and all information being redacted before.

i'm also greatly concerned about the origins and funding of ISIS.

There is a huge amount you can blame Israel for. But 9/11 and IS? Seriously? This is getting into the realms of stupid conspiracy theories.

Why..? Because you dont agree..? Or because its not in the mam.. It must be a conspiracy..?

I believe that the fate of the Palestinians and the Israelis is inextricably linked. And that any solution that is good for one has to be good for other. I am pleased to see so many posters here balk at being described as "anti Israel".

Many of you have just denied ever saying that you wished Israel to be annihilated, or, to use less inflammatory language, cease to exist. But now that I have asked, none of you so far have said that they want Israel (as a Jewish state) to continue to exist. I invite you do so here.

"Or because its not in the mam.."

What is the "mam"?

HoneyBadger - to respond to your personal remark...

You said "let's be clear it's not ok to lie and malign and attribute views to a collective of people. just as it's not ok to conflate all palestinians with terrorism or label them snakes or 'not nice people like us' as has been frequently done on this thread."

My point.. I have not conflated all Palestinians with terrorism, I have not labelled them (or anyone) snakes, nor 'not nice people like us'. So to use your wording, there is no need to malign and attribute views to me either.

Sergeantmajor, I would like Israel to continue to exist as a Jewish state alongside a Palestinian state but I would like all its non-Jewish citizens to have full and equal rights and there to be no discrimination against them.

I have some relatives in Israel who are now about sixth generation, and my late maternal English grandparents (although not Jewish) were ardent supporters of Israel's creation as a Jewish homeland in the 1940s. (Although I do recall my grandad saying something in 2002 along the lines of "I campaigned for Israel's creation and look what the buggers are doing now.")

Having said that, I also quite like the idea of a one-state solution encompassing the whole of Israel and Palestine with equal rights for all people living there. So I guess I am indecisive!

Ideally I would favour a one state solution, but realistically a two state solution seems more practically achievable. Although the more time passes, and the more land grabs, the harder that becomes too. Very depressing. The best I think we can hope for is a prolonged period of peace, an easing of the blockade, and a gradual shift in attitudes on both sides before any further solutions can be considered.

What is the "mam"?

Typo: msm; Mainstream media

halfdrunkcoffee - I am delighted to hear that you wish for the continuance of the Jewish state. I too would like to see a neighbouring independent Palestinian state, and the two of them rubbing along together peacefully.

Anyone else who, in PigletJohn's phrase, is "critical of actions of the State of Israel" would like to say that they wish for the continued existence of the Jewish state...?

I see that "continued existence of Israel" has now been turned into "continued existence of the Jewish state"

Perhaps this is to head off anyone who seeks a single-state solution with equal rights for people who are not Jewish.

It certainly is Israel's policy to (1) avoid giving people in the Occupied Territories citizenship if they are not Jewish, and (2) ethnically cleanse Palestinians, so I gather Sergeantmajor is asking us to support a Jewish-only solution.

Which I for one don't.