Muslims anger at Popes remarks

[speedymama]

Story here .

I wonder if a Fatwa will be taken out against the Pope who had the temerity to say something about Islam? His comments have been misconstrued and to be honest, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Both Christianity and Islam have a bloodthirsty history but I think that Muslims are becoming too hypersensitive towards their religion. Why is it that clerics like Abu Hanza can stand on the streets of London, spewing hateful rhetoric about the West but the minute anybody in the West says something about Islam, Muslims around the world get their headscarves and beards in a twist? Chill out for goodness sake. I don't recall the Muslim collective condenming the Iranian President when he called for Israel to be wiped of the planet. I'm certain that there are many Muslims who make disparaging remarks about Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism etc. Religion is not just about words, it is about living up to what you preach and how you treat others. No wonder so many people in this country are turned off religion.

I personally agreed with everything the Pope said and interestingly, so did my male Muslim friend.

I don't think you can claim that the spread of christianity has always been peaceful and islam, predominantly violent, can you? I was under the impression that until the Crusades, the Islamic communities were peaceful and spreading slowly.

Not a defender of any group who have a wish to convert the world, much less one using violence, and am horrified by the radical islam fundementalist movement. I think the Pope has a right to quote other people, of course he does, but better to hear and debate with Muslims with a different voice than provoke the effigy burners?

Too right Blu.

The Conquistadores under Ferdinand and Isabella was brutal.

And the French Knights Templar, with extra keen recruits from England and Scotland, managed to destroy peace negotiations between the other Crusaders and Saladin - through their bllodthirsty massacres!

Obvioulsy the Pope is not going to make speeches saying 'i wish i was a Muslim' is a wistful tonme, any more than a leading Imam is going to say 'I wonder if I might like being a catholic'. The infallibility of the Pope and the 'off-limits' status of Mohammed in Islam are absolute positions. therefore to avoid absolute confrontation, tact and self-awareness in debate is possibly a good quality. Even top catholic leaders were saying that last night.

of course the issues should be debated an discussed, but debate of any kind relies on listening, perspective and being able to see things from other people's pov.

Effigy burners cannot do that - don't get them needlessly involved, it doesn't help.

And Rhubarb - yes, your post would be great and in an ideal world, none of us would rise to things, take them persoanlly and get ofended. But we do. I ahve seen you on this board become offended precisiely because of the ay people have talked about the Pope. I have become furiously offended by a whole thread about amputated leg jokes (all over, no grudges held now). It's in our nature, we get territorial when we feel our patch is being ridiculed, disrespected or attacked.

Its about time we started looking after our own we seem to have been neglecting them for a while. Im not a great fan of religion or politics more often than not it is used as a crutch to insight trouble. We are all intitled to our own beliefs and to say what we think its called having an opinion but if you dont agree im not goin to kick your head in or create trouble because of it

Pope's coming to Turkey soon.
Am interested to know how that will go down!

Moondog - there was some question last night that that might have to be reviewed.

One thing the Pope isn't great at is clarity of expression IMO. His speech was absolutely baffling. But I thought he was trying to say that in Islam, conquest is a religious duty and a direct instruction in the texts, while the opposite is true in Christianity. Agree that to talk about aggression in Islam while remaining absolutely schtumm on the Inquisition and Crusades is very weasely indeed.

True Biblio,but we are dealing with now,not what happened centuries ago.

I do however believe that the Muslim 'threat' is hugely exagerrated though.
Lmao at the thought of a bloke in a cave controlling the sort of stuff that is supposed to be going on.

It's like a Bond movie!

It was a pretty daft thing to say. Sure it was part of some learned philosophical musings, but anyone who lived in the real world would instantly realise what the soundbite would be. Of course, the pope doesn't live in the real world, probably can't remember the last time he DID live in the real world as he's been a vatican bigwig for so long. Naturally, people should be able to muse however they wish. But either he didn't care about the effect he had (maybe he wanted to stir things up a bit) or he needs to get a non-vatican advisor.

Still, burning effigies is possibly not the best way to demonstrate the unfairness of the remarks.

I just don't want every single prominent individual and institution in the world to stop their interesting musings and reduce them to a carefully weighed uncontroversial sound-bite so that no-one anywhere can be offended though.

Does anyone have a link to the full text of the pope's speech? I've looked on the vatican website and ahem, can find no mention of it...

Brilliant and interesting thread - thank you everyone!

Fluffy - there is a link on the BBC news page.

Yes religion has a lot to answer for I agree and yes I have become offended by presumptious posts about catholics, but I have not gone onto the streets and burnt effigies or incited violence against those who have offended me! I put my point of view across and leave it at that.

Pope John Paul II apologised on behalf of the church about many many things and I am pleased that the catholic church is now largely peaceable. There are still many wrongs to be righted but by and large we do not go around beheading people or blowing ourselves up. The Pope quoted someone (I can't be bothered to type his name correctly!) saying that the Islam religion has been equated with violence. And what do the Islamic nation do in response to this so called offensive remark? They react with violence! I just don't get it!

Indeed, and the previous Pope apologised for the Crusades, and the Vatican has opposed the invasions of Iraq et al.

Message withdrawn

DC is correct btw - Ratzinger was indeed in charge of the inquisition - for nearly 20 years he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - formerly known as the Holy Office and before that as the Holy Inquisition.

I agree with DC

And this is nothing at all to do with free speech - The Pope is the head of the catholic church and speaks in that capacity and in that capacity I don't see how his comments were remotely appropriate or could be construed as anything other than biased and offensive - it is his JOB and his PURPOSE NOT to incite religious hatred and bigotry which is exactly what he was doing

It's very odd

bloss Jesus also said "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Going back to the original texts is not very helpful, it is a reductionist argument. Dialogue with other, open minded people of faith is the way forward.

bloss I was talking about the imposition of Sharia law in countries where the overwhelming majority of people are Muslim and where it is democratically elected. I make no apology for that and I am not an extremist. Are you saying that everyone is allowed democracy except Muslims? If a Muslim country elected to introduce Sharia law would you say that they had no right to do that.

Alot of people equate Islam with violence and I'm sure can bring up quotes to support this. But some people are just not interested in context. Islam is a huge religion and covers everything, not just crime and punishment.

Islam also talks at length about the rights of women, orphans, neighbours. When correctly implemented I believe an Islamic society would be one where broken marriages, crime, child abuse, were under control. I would like to live in such a society.

You think I'm nice and normal???? I think your comments are really quite patronising and a bit creepy.

I really didn't want to join this thread because I think this discussion always brings out the worst in people. But I feel that you are hounding me.

my dh is macedonian and he told me once about how things used to be in the Balkans under Islamic Turkish rule [Ottoman empire]. churches were allowed to be built, as long as they were not built any taller than the mosques, and Christians were allowed to practise their faith. So it is clear that though both Christianity and Islam have been spread through conquest at various times [thinking about South America, Africa, here] both religions have shown tolerance at various times, and this is obviously the way forward.

and christianity spread peacefully and through word of mouth in the early centuries before it became institutionalized. After that it was definitely spread through conquest at times.

It's also worth pointing out that the text used by the former head of thre Inquisition is wrong to the point of dishonesty.
His posirtion is that Islam brought nothing, but he would know that simply is wrong.
Under Christian domination, Europe lost a large % of the knowledge and idea built up by the Romans and Greeks. So strong was the crushing weight of Christian obscurantism, that the burning of witches or more accurately., "midwives@ threatened to depopulate Europe.
Islam was able to score many victories against European Christians becuae they had not only retained useful aspects of older knowledge, but had extended it greatly.
In short the situation has a dark symmetry with today.
Religious zealots are fighting a more advanced society. Last time the Moslems were the smart act, this time they're playing dumb.
Of course the scary part of this is that last time the bad guys (us) won....

It is important that 'thinkers' can think, and speak freely. perhaps that is not always the same skill needed by ambassadors. We need thinkers and ambassadors for our understanding of the world to develop, but we also need ambassadors to negotiate mutual understanding and respect. Using an ancient quote wasn't perhaps the most ambassadorial thing to do. But that shouldn't peclude free speech and frank discussion.

Saadia is in favour of Sharia Law?? Bloody hell,that's awful. Unbelievable.