I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

[unrealhousewife]

What 'all' did I say with 'these people'?

I meant murderers and terrorists, what did you think I meant?

[unrealhousewife]

No, just lumping murderers together.

It's like seeing a really dysfunctional couple, you want to tell them to separate but they are so entrenched in the arguments and the blaming that nobody leaves.

Sorry if I'm being simplistic but sometimes you need to tell people to just let go, give it up. As I said, Israel served its purpose when Europe was anti-semitic, but it's not necessary to be a state any more.

I just think there must be an alternative. Surely I'm not the only person who thinks this?

[AndHarry]

You can't deal with these murderers by trying to develop education policies with them, it needs to be accepted that there is nothing anyone can do to change their minds. They hate Jews and will continue to try and kill them.

Murderers and extremists probably are past hope and need to be dealt with through their respective criminal justice systems. As a whole, both sides need to have confidence that their justice system respects the rule of law.

I don't believe that all Palestinians hate all Israelis and vice versa. In fact I know they don't. Moderate voices need a proper platform so that the world knows that they exist, for a start, and a safe way to communicate together to have the opportunity to resolve what can be resolved by peaceful civilians. By opening up opportunities for personal trust to be fostered, the fundamental step of seeing a Palestinian or an Israeli as 'a [wo]man and a brother' can be achieved, solidified and used as a foundation for progress towards peace. Education and cultural intetraction between young people will, in my opinion, give the best hope for them to have peace.

Quivering I'm glad we agree :) Your points have given me cause for a lot of thought!

[AndHarry]

No I do not think that Israelis should 'give it up'. They have been an excluded and harassed people for centuries, culminating in a most horrific genocide. I don't agree with how it was done but they deserve a homeland and that homeland is now Israel. We have to deal with situations as we find them, not try to rewrite history.

Part of my family was expelled from Iran, as were the Baha'i, who have also found a home in Israel, in Haifa. Women have told me how they fled, terrified, on foot across the desert with their children, how they have built new homes and new lives. Those new lives are not perfect but they have a government to speak for them and protect them. The government of each country should represent the interests of all its people and everyone should be safe everywhere but that is not the world we live in. Without a government to speak for them, Jews would go back to the status of outsiders and visitors.

Jews and Arabs can live peacefully together. Until the last century Jews formed part of the strong societies of countries as diverse as Iran, Egypt and Morocco.

[unrealhousewife]

So Israel has become a kind of sanctuary for other groups - is that a good reason for it to stay where it is? We already reach out to the oppressed of all nations where we can in the forms of aid, support and refuge. But that's a separate function, a nice positive result of the Jewish state.

I don't think people could or should be forced to move en masse, but if the US care so much (they genuinely do which is good) surely it would be better for them to make space for them at home? Or in the UK, or Australia?

I'm not trying to rewrite history. The days of mass persecution of Jews are over in the West. Democracy is well and truly in place and that won't change. The Jewish people suffered historically primarily because they weren't allowed to own land which pushed them to the outside of society as traders. That's just not a problem any more, they own land all over the world and no amount of antisemitism can take it away from them. I think the world has moved on.

As I say I'm sorry if my posts are simplistic. I'd just like to ponder an alternative, what might happen if everyone just walked away from it. Israel might end up a waste land but Israelis would be living successful lives elsewhere, in safety and security. The Palestinians then get what they want.

And it's 8 million people (6m Jewish), I'm sure the the rest of the world could accommodate them and compensate for their historical losses with land and real security, rather than a second rate version of it.

[cheekygeeky]

Some really thought provoking posts here.
Unreal you are not being simplistic, you are being racist. Using language like 'them' 'these people' 'murdering psychopaths' and suggesting they move to Uganda displays the kind of attitudes that are a barrier to peace.

There are murderers on both sides.

[unrealhousewife]

I didn't say that at all. Someone else mentioned Uganda. I'm not racist.

[cheekygeeky]

You're right. You didn't say Uganda, you said Australia.

[WhatUsain]

I got that Quivering :o I'm genuinely interested to know how young Israelis and Palestinians can be brought up respecting and accepting one another.

I haven't RTFT, but when I was in New Mexico I heard about a summer camp they ran to bring Israeli and Palestinian girls together and learn to respect each other. They then go back to Israel/Palestine and hopefully spread that understanding to their peers families. It might be a bit idealistic but it's a lovely idea and I IIRC it's had some successes: creativityforpeace.com/about/index.html

[AndHarry]

There are all sorts of reasons why Israel can't be closed like a failing business and set up somewhere 'safer' as a sort of Israel 2. Israel isn't some sort of wildlife sanctuary for Jews, it is a Jewish homeland where the government is responsible for the economy, security, representation and well-being of its citizens, relying on alliances rather than charity, law rather than fickle goodwill.

If say you went with your plan, the Jews would either be scattered to the nations that would take them, in minorities so small as to be fairly insignificant, or they'd have to go somewhere en masse to establish a new Israel. Where do you see that happening? Australia - most of its land is uninhabitable. The UK - overcrowded in the SE but I suppose we could give them Wales. The US - New Jersey's roughly the same size, maybe they could have that. It's just not going to happen is it.

Israelis are actual, real people with the concerns, interests, relationships, attachments, insecurities, fears and imperfections of humans everywhere. Many of them have first-hand experience of racism so horrific that they, their families and their friends were in danger of their lives and livelihoods. It is a nation traumatised and acting from fear of further trauma, real and imagined.

I'm interested in the rehabilitation of that nation, not its destruction.

[AndHarry]

What a fantastic organization WhatUsain! I'm interested to see that it's an organization for women. One of the things I believe is that women will have a leading role in bridging the two sides.

[WhatUsain]

Yea it's great! I did a whole course in peace studies out there and once you got over the whole 'hippyness' of it a lot of the stuff made sense, like mediation, non violent communication etc. It really opened my eyes to a different way of doing things.

I remember them saying that a lot of the girls at the camp didn't want to share a room because the Israel/Palestine divide was so entrenched, but by the end they were best friends.

[AndHarry]

My family would love that. They are both arty and hippy :o

[AndHarry]

Lol! Which country was that in?

[AndHarry]

What did you talk about?

[SacreBlue]

If any of the PP commenting are from the UK, you might want to think about the situation in NI.

A land colonised, against the will of the people, with natives discriminated against, and murdered, to facilitate colonisation.

And it was fought by the people, in unspeakable ways.

We have found a, albeit uneasy, compromise.

The lives of soldiers on both sides cannot be replaced, nor the innocent people killed in the war. We suffer the consequences every day.

But we move on. And hope.

People kill for what they believe in. Life. Hope. Somewhere to settle. Somewhere to be safe.

I don't hate Israelis for wanting to feel safe, to have a place they call home. And I don't hate Palestinians for wanting exactly the same.

I do hope, fervently, for a peace. Even if it is only like ours, tenuous, fleeting , subject to change.

But a peace we can look to. That we can say, 'This is ours', from whichever side we look from.

My son knows little about the war raged in the place he lives in. I am very grateful for that.

I hope that children in Palestine & Israel would one day get to feel safe and, not have to choose sides from between their neighbours and friends.