I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

Shinesmile - I agree. And then when those pesky palestinians refuse to sit nice and and quietly in their little cage and start fighting back they are terrorists and aggressive. Tut tut, why can't they just do the whole world a favour and put up, shut up or force themselves into neighbouring Arab countries. Oh wait.....

Shame that this thread has degenerated due to some extremist posting from posters who clearly view Israel and Israelis as some kind of satanic demon (and, thehoneybadger, sorry but you also clearly have no idea about Israeli society at all).

I'm happy to engage with posters who wish to actually hear the views from the other side and have a constructive discussion, not just shout and try to get involved in some kind of race to the bottom.

Funnily enough, my Palestinian friends - admittedly only Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from East Jerusalem, not from Gaza - are far more moderate than many of the posters here. You can have a reasonable conversation with them without constantly being accused of being 'fake' or whatever. Funny that when you actually know the other side, you start to understand them a bit more rather than posting sound bites you read on the internet.

I have good reason to hate. A very good friend of mine was blown up and murdered by Islamic terrorists in 2004. She was fast asleep when it happened. I have two friends who each lost a child to suicide bombings in Jerusalem during the worst years of the second intifada. I went to those funerals and saw the awful pain. I have seen the aftermath of a suicide bombing when there was human flesh hanging from the trees. I have another friend who was paralysed from the neck down by a Palestinian sniper. He was a talented guitarist. This is my personal experience, not what I read on a website.

But I don't hate the Palestinians. I want us to reach a solution on how we can live together. I can recognise that the Palestinians have suffered more and empathise with that since I have also seen suffering on the Israeli side. It's not a fucking competition, is it?

Which is why I can feel such frustration at BOTH Palestinians and Israelis. At Palestinians for being so bloody stupid and short-sighted. At not accepting the peace deals which were offered to them in 2000 and 2008 where they could have achieved statehood and ended the occupation because they're clinging to an unrealistic dream. Israel isn't going to just vanish because they want it to.

And also frustration at Israel for behaving so brutally to the Palestinians, even given the provocation, at destroying our own democracy at home by being so undemocratic towards others, for being influenced by a tiny group of messianic extremist settlers.

Anyone who is fair-minded and has actually put effort into trying to understand the situation in all its complexity realises that there is wrong and right on both sides.

no, it's not a competition.

human rights, the geneva convention, the liberation of colonised lands, the ending of apartheid etc none of it is a competition. it's just what has to be done and what we no longer accept as 'ok'. it's about making a break with the past and showing willingness to move forward, acknowledge fault and treat people better in future.

of course there is right and wrong on both sides but anyone with a dash of rationality can see that wrong behaviour on the part of an oppressed, ghettoised people who have had their land and lives stolen and been pushed into inhumane living conditions in a small strip of land with first world modern day weapons being hurled in at them is a more understandable and predictable than the oppressor throwing yet more violence and brutality at them.

i'm sorry that this is hard for you to understand. i genuinely hope that at some point israel will understand and start to act in its own interests otherwise there is likely to be an all out war with israel standing alone in the midst of it.

Why didn't the Palestinians accept the peace deals of 2000 or 2008 then thehoneybadger?

Why?

No, there won't be a war with Israel all alone. No-one really gives a shit to be honest. Look at Syria.

There is going to be low-level conflict with the occasional crisis until we eventually all reach the same position we were at in 2000 - a two state solution, compromise over Jerusalem, land swaps for big settlement blocks near the border adn dismantling of the rest, compensation for refugees plus a limited number returning.

The question is how long it'll take and how many more people will die in the meantime.

Unless we end up going down the one-state solution route that is. I actually quite like the one state solution idea in theory - one secular, democratic state for both Palestinians and Israelis to live together.

But I can't see that working out in practice (if the UK can't even keep Scotland!) despite it being the dream of both the extremist settlers on the Israeli right AND that of Hamas - they both have a very different vision of what shape that one state will take.

shak 2000 peace talks failed as palestine asked for:

Going bAck to pre 1967 borders - ie: asked for their own land back

Wanted right for return of refugees

Israel said no.

2008 failed as:

Negotiations came to a halt as Gaza was bombed by Israel.

You may feel that the offer was 'the most generous yet'

BUT

Palestine has every right to demand back its land and right of refugees to return. Israel thinks it can throw crumbs at Palestine which they consider 'generous' and are shocked when Palestine says that is unacceptable.

Quivering, so because of the Hebron massacre, the Jews have a right to massacre Palestinians and steal their land and homes? How illogical is that.

much like in america you get massive protests against things like the iraq 'war'. of course decent people are in there but sadly psychopaths with raging egos and murderous natures tend to be the ones with power and are just as willing to obliterate people who disagree with them of the same nationality as they their other 'enemies'.

so yes i feel sorry for the israeli people - i feel sorry for the poor people who didn't ask to be dragged to palestine and be a part of genocide and occupation. i feel sorry for them that they are forced to be a part of it, forced to perform military service in the name of xionism and anti-palestinian action when they have consciences and are horrified by the system.

do i feel sorry for people who dehumanise the victims and call them death-seeking and pretend a petrol station is the same as hundreds of homes and lives in a caged strip of land? no.

Palestine has every right to demand back its land and right of refugees to return.

Unfortunately, Palestinians need to accept that they're not going to get that.

Israel is a fact, like it or not. The right of return of refugees would destroy Israel (not the original refugees - if you include all their descendants). It won't happen. A $30 billion compensation fund was established. It's time to accept compensation and move on. My grandparents were also expelled from their home a long time ago. They received no compensation and, despite the unfairness of what happened to them, we've moved on.

They were going to get 96% of the WB plus Gaza. They turned it down for 4%? All the deaths, the lack of opportunity, all of that, for 4%?

and the awful fact is that millions of jews could have been saved during the holocaust if the xionist leaders had of let them be evacuated but they were determined to get palestine and refused to agree to any evacuations that went anywhere other than palestine. they saw jewish life as nothing and the state of israel becoming a reality as everything.

it's horrific when you see how time and time again real people are sacrificed like lambs for the ideals and goals of psychopaths.

the reality is that israel replicates nazism in a way that no one else has. xionism has cost us all so much including the real jewish people.

That is beyond disgusting and offensive. I can't even engage with such statements.

why should they accept it as a fact? because you say so? because the xionists say so?

but my experience of israeli arrogance and supremacy attitudes is way off the mark right?

if you came and occupied my house and killed half of my family and then offered me half of my house back with an electric fence around it and no right to decent trade and access with the world i'd hold out i think. i might even climb on the roof and let you bomb me for all i know if you'd had me trapped in the attic terrorised for long enough.

maybe black south africans should have just accepted apartheid and injustice was A FACT. do you think? should they have just said ah actually let them have it in case anyone gets hurt (as if being oppressed and dehumanised and degraded wasn't being hurt)?

wake up and get over yourself.

and the world has sat by in appeasement.

but the world WILL WAKE UP. even america seems to be starting to distance itself from your atrocities.

BTW Elusive. Factual correction.

The 2007/2008 Annapolis talks didn't fail because Gaza was bombed. Who gave you that misinformation? The conflict in Gaza happened much later (in the winter of 2008/9).

Olmert made his offer which Abu Mazen rejected in September 2008. Operation Cast Lead began on 27 December 2008.

stripped bare of emotion the reality is that you 'israel' has no right to be there and we had no right to give it and the world is paying a massive price for that mistake. but no one has paid a higher price than the palestinians.

incidentally the average egyptian thinks you are all crazy - palestinians and israelis alike. unsurprisingly most of them would can often wish they could wash their hands of the both of you much as we probably would if that nightmare was on our doorstep and we were constantly being demanded to take part in sorting it out.

not to mention you've been at war with them so their restraint in stepping in and negotiating for peace between you and the people you repress is actually to be admired. but hey, they're just more bad arabs aren't they?

Sorry thehoneybadger. I'm not going to engage with someone who says such provocative and offensive statements like Israel is replicating Nazism like no-one else has.

It's so offensive and insensitive (and wrong) that it's jaw-dropping.

Maybe other posters will engage with you. Not me.

What a shame that you're bringing the tone of this thread down with your blinkered extremism and hatred.

possibly like if there were english in wales decreeing 'we're gonna take this place and rule it and we're just the first wave ha ha ha' would have probably been met with some antagonism.

you're still engaging dear.

and it's crazily jaw dropping to hear you accuse me of extremism and hatred whilst laughing at people being killed on their rooftops and calling a brutalised people 'death seeking'.

please feel to finally stop engaging - maybe your idea of not engaging is a bit like your idea of seeking peace. re: a flagrant denial of reality.