I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

Going back to KitschinSynch's post yesterday, I'm glad that this thread is mostly informative and hope-producing (if that's a phrase?!). If anyone else is lurking I know I for one would be interested to hear your views, whether you've got a Phd in the conflict or, like me, just a general (and possibly badly-informed :)) interest.

Intention is a key part of the legality.

Hamas has 10,000 missiles stockpiled so the number of air strikes isn't relevant, per se. The question of proportionality is one of whether Israel has taken sufficient measures to avoid civilian casualties given that Hamas is hiding its military infrastructure among the civilian population. That's Israel's legal and moral obligation, that's why Israeli intelligence phones the civilian inhabitants of buildings it has targeted to tell them to evacuate.

Eventually, one of the missiles or rockets WILL cause deaths. That's why Hamas are firing them. They fire them all in one go under the premise that Iron Dome can't knock them all out at the same time. And it's true that they're getting through.

Yes, the Israeli population is more well prepared and defended - thankfully, since Hamas has stated that all Israelis are targets and trying to kill as many as possible.

babbas - you might not be worried about your friends in Tel Aviv because they have access to a bomb shelter. I actually do worry a lot about my 77 year old father who lives in Tel Aviv and who has lung cancer. He can't run to a bomb shelter. He needs to go to hospital for his treatment so can't just stay at home. Yes, the Palestinians are suffering more but Israel has a responsibility to its citizens to protect them (as well as a legal obligation to minimise civilian casualties on the other side). Hamas also has a responsibility to its citizens to protect them which its completely failing to do (and if I were Palestinian, given the poverty and shortages in Gaza, I'd aslo be asking my elected officials where the money to buy all these missiles came from and why missiles have been prioritised over medicine).

Intention? Do you believe that Israel intends to have a peaceful existence with Palestine?

Do you think the Palestinians believe that Israel intends to target Hamas only and actively encourages peace talks?

The most recent peace talks began in 2013 and Netanyahu escalated the settlement building. Sounds very committed to peace right?

In january 2014, another 1400 settler homes were approved. Netanyahu still trying to derail the peace talks.

Later on in january again, another 381 settler homes were announced by Israel to be built in the West Bank.

In early April this year, Israel approved another 708 residential units.

The peace talks broke down. Anyone still wondering what went wrong?

You're jumping around a lot yruapita. I was talking about Hamas and its criminal intent to kill as many israeli civilians as possible. They basically want to murder my 77 year old dad just for the crime of being Jewish (yes, Jewish, not israeli, Hamas are incredibly anti Semitic as well). They compound this crime by committing it using their own civilians as shields.

That's intent.

The Israeli army phones the Palestinian occupants of a building before it is bombed to try to reduce civilian casualties. That's intent.

Israel has a legal obligation to minimize civilian casualties. It hasn't always tried hard enough in the past and has accordingly been criticized. But may be if Hamas stopped firing missiles at Israel, there wouldn't be any casualties at all in Gaza?

I notice you haven't said a word against Hamas and what they're doing but tried to talk about settlements. You realise there are no settlements in Gaza? They were all dismantled. Wouldn't it have been a confidence inspiring gesture if Hamas could demonstrate to Israelis that dismantling settlements will lead to peace? What Israelis see is that dismantling settlements leads to rockets and missiles on tel Aviv.

And to answer your question yruapita, if you'd read the thread, you'd see that I have no sympathy for Netanyahu or support for his policies.

Did you read the link to Yuval Diskin's facebook post that I posted? You'd see that many Israelis despair of netanyahu too.

And I can fully understand the frustration of the Palestinians where the West Bank has become some kind of Wild West. For the most part, Israelis living in Tel Aviv and Haifa can forget about the conflict....until moments of crisis like now.

However, if you want to look historically, the Palestinians have hardly been messengers of peace and, just like you blamed Israel for Hamas being voted in (although you ignored wider trends in the Arab and Muslim world regarding Islamic extremism independent of Israel and the corruption of the PA), the Palestinians are also partly responsible for Netanyahu being voted in (although there are also worrying trends in Israeli society).

Why did Arafat turn down Barak's offer in 2000? It really was as good as it was ever going to get. The majority of the settlements would have been dismantled with land swaps for the ones close to the border (altogether 96% of the WB and Gaza) with Jerusalem shared as their capital and passage across Israel between Gaza and the WB. There would have been a limited right of return with a $30 billion compensation package for refugees and their descendants. The Palestinains would have their own state now! But Arafat couldn't do it. I guess he was a terrorist through and through and hoodwinked us all with his pretend game of statesmanship - and he went and started the second intifada which proved such a catastrophe - for Israelis and palestinians but undoubtedly the Palestinians ended up far far worse off. The failure of the talks and the start of the second intifada destroyed the Israeli left and the peace camp, it's still recovering.

And then there was Ehud Olmert's offer to the Palestinians in 2008. It was similar to Barak's with some changes, fewer refugees to be absorbed I think but full control of the Temple Mount (which is a big deal for Israel). Abu Mazen couldn't do it. I actually think Abu Mazen does want peace but politically he couldn't swing it (because what then would have been the point of all the sacrifices of the second intifada - it's taken a while for it to sink in that it was pointless).

I doubt we'll have peace under Netanyahu. And let's not forget that Abu Mazen has formed a unity government with Hamas who are sworn to Israel's destruction. I can understand why he did it - the divisions in Palestinian society are even more murderous and destructive than the conflict with Israel - but it doesn't bode well for peace really as Hamas will torpedo any peace deal since they don't think Israel has a right to even exist and any Jews (or Christians) who are permitted to stay should be dhimmi in the caliphate that they'd create.

What the world sees is that Israel approved a record 14,000 settlements during the most recent peace talks 2013-2014. What Palestinians have known for a very long is that Israel does not want peace, it wants land.

Even US officials blamed Israel for the breakdown of 'peace' talks, due to settlement stance. In NY Times, Mark Landler wrote; Publicly, Mr. Obama has said that both sides bear responsibility for the latest collapse. But the president believes that more than any other factor, Israel’s drumbeat of settlement announcements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem poisoned the atmosphere and doomed any chance of a breakthrough with the Palestinians.

During the 'peace' talks, Israel demolished Palestinian houses (called them illegal)

During the 'peace' talks Israel killed 50 Palestinians

During the 'peace' talks Israel injured 1,100 Palestinians

During the 'peace' talks Israel detained 4,000 Palestinians.

Intention, you say!

You don't intend to actually address any of my points, do you yruapita ?

I don't think you even bothered to read what I wrote.

You don't want a discussion or to listen. It's getting repetitive.

A couple of questions for you though (which I know you won't answer, you'll just carry on with the one-sided litany against Israel).

Do the Palestinians bear ANY responsibility for the conflict in your opinion?

Is Hamas justified in intentionally trying to murder israeli citizens and hiding behind their own citizens to do so?

And Israel didn't approve 14,000 settlements yruapita - there aren't even 14,000 in the whole West Bank. I'm sure Bibi approved housing units to be built but as I've said a few times, we're not going to get peace with Bibi. However, Bibi didn't appear out of nowhere. He is a product of what went on before.

A few more questions for you which I know you won't answer because you prefer to carry on repeating yourself.

If the Palestinians are SO sure that Israel doesn't want peace but wants land, why didn't they call their bluff and accept either Ehud Barak's offer in 2000 or Ehud Olmert's offer in 2008? In which settlements would have been dismantled and land given to the Palestinians. Why did they turn them down?

And if Israel only wants land, why did it unilaterally dismantle every last settlement in Gaza? Why did Hamas then not to demonstrate to the many Israelis who have no connection to settlements that dismantling settlements will lead to Peace.

Shakshuka: do you actually think that if the rockets from Gaza stopped then Israel would begin dismantling all the illegal west bank settlements? Really?

the rockets are the Palestinians answer to the systematic land theft . One act of aggression and confrontation is met by another. As I said earlier I really don't see much difference between the two. If you keep taking people's homes and farms do you actually expect them to roll over and accept it with no retaliation?

Of course Israel wants land. That is why it keeps building settlements. Why else do they get built ?

This thread is so repetitive but I'm with yrapita on this one. Those stats she quotes seem pretty convincing to me.

I'm also glad to see Topbanana's abusive post was deleted .

i've only been to israel twice and would never go again. both times involved massive, long, rude, highly personal interrogations and intimidation at borders because of having a long connection with egypt and traveling in and out of egypt frequently and having long stays there due to work at the time. i can well believe someone was refused a job on the basis of having been on a protest once given the treatment i was subjected to simply for being a young englishwoman who spent a lot of time in egypt.

i have also seen people of palestinian descent (american third generation citizens) refused access to egypt and treated with utter contempt for no reason. i've also had to work with israeli tourists in the sinai and seen the levels of contempt with which a section of israeli society behaves. to be fair these were mostly young men on a break from or ending their military service but that in itself is an issue when you have a nation where everyone is forced to do military service and that service revolves around nationalism and anti palestinian activity and mentality.

of course that has impact and no of course it doesn't lead to liberal majority.

i have of course also met thoughtful, considered and balanced israeli nationals - many of whom go through hell being made to do military service and be a part of that system.

also another voice saying that gaza more than fits the definition of ghetto. i've known groups of people who have gone in there to deliver aid or to run projects or simply to try and document what is going on. the films and photos and accounts i've witnessed were harrowing.

sorry - that should have read that htey were refused access to israel (via the egyptian border).

How many more children have the Israeli bombings killed overnight? It is utterly sickening.
And these actions on the part of Israel, cheered on by the Americans, who need Israel strategically, destabilise the world for all of us.

The video clips and photos are harrowing and very distressing and due to social media are all over Facebook and Twitter. Israel aggression cannot be covered up, as it attacks people who have no army, no air force, no bunkers or bomb shelters, no navy and no heavy weapons. Gaza has rockets but when you compare them with the planes artillery and rockets they are nothing.

The level of palestinian casualties, arrests and deaths is staggering. Israel obviously thinks that Palestinian lives are worth nothing. You kill 3 of us we will kill 3000 of you. And the most disturbing aspect is the palestinians are effectively barricaded in. They have nowhere to run so bombing them seems especially cruel.

Although the international leaders are sickeningly silent, the world is not. The images of death and destruction are everywhere. Israel had no justification for this sickening level of attacks. Shak have you seen the damage the Hamas rockets have caused? Barely scratches on the pavement. Now go look at the damage Israel has caused. And then you use your aggressive questioning and rhetoric to argue is acting legally and all of this Hamas fault.

Planes artillery and rockets of Israel that should read.

I think the settlement>rockets, rockets>settlements argument is very much chicken and egg.

I do hope very much that Jordan retains it stability in the midst of the crisis in the region or I think the border will become so porous that we will start to see appalling violence in the West Bank.

How am I being simplistic? I find that term dismissive and the facts now speak for themselves. There is nothing simplistic about the death toll in Palestine. And you cannot keep blaming Hamas for the death and destruction.

Have you seen any of the photos of the death and destruction caused? It is heartbreaking.

Sorry should read how is babbas being simplistic.

Andharry I agree. I hope Jordan stays stable.

Thank you honeybadger for that very informative and telling post.

Taken from bbc website:

Meanwhile, an Israeli military spokesman said an attack on a house in Khan Younis on Tuesday in which eight people were killed was "a tragedy - not what we intended"

There's intention again.

Israel wants to send in ground troops. That is pure escalation yet again. How much more and grief and blood of Palestinians does it want to see.

I'm glad you posted regarding the civlians killed in Khan Younis, yruapita.

Here's the link to the BBC article you quoted from.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28241273

You must have read that the Israeli military TOLD the people there to leave but they didn't. I guess that bit didn't quite fit in with Israel being the little satan.

In fact, if you follow the link to the Palestinian news agency website (note not Israeli) you get more details about this.
www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=711034

Here's a quote from the Palestinian website:
"Ashraf al-Qidra told Ma'an seven Palestinians, among them two children under five years of age, were killed in an airstrike on Khan Younis.
Dozens of locals had gathered on the roof of the house after the family received a notice from Israeli authorities that it would be targeted, al-Qidra said."

This is quite difficult for me to get my head around. These people were told by the Israeli army that this house was going to be targeted. Instead of making sure that their kids were far away from danger, they decided to hold a roof party instead. WTF????

Call me crazy, but I have young kids and if I got a notice that the Israeli army were about to target my house, I'd get them as far away from danger as possible.

Hamas' slogan now is "Victory or martyrdom", I guess the martyrdom bit applies to little kids from their perspective. Ah well, at least they'll be going to paradise and Israel will get the blame. Win win situation from the Hamas perspective.

Israel doesn't want to see grief and blood of Palestinians. It wants Hamas to stop firing missiles and rockets.

Babbas - these are not toy missiles. They don't barely scratch the pavement. What are you talking about? Iron Dome was a game changer but these missiles do kill and they have killed in the past. However, Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) knows that Iron Dome isn't 100%. If they fire enough, some will get through and you only need one to land in the right place for there to be mass casualties. That's what they want. There'll be celebrations on the streets of Gaza when that happens.

Hamas are trying very hard to murder my Dad, the rest of my family and my friends. Israel can't and mustn't just sit back and let them do it just because they haven't managed to yet!!!!! If someone is trying very hard to kill you and your loved ones but they keep on missing, you are entitled to respond before they do it rather than waiting for the shot that hits.

I'm sorry you don't like that I ask questions. I actually find it very telling that my questions go unanswered. I assume that's because you can't answer them.

Donnie - this is nothing to do with the settlements. Nothing. THERE ARE NO SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA! Israel dismantled every last one and got missiles in return. Of course, ending missile fire in Gaza won't automatically lead to dismantling settlements in the WB. But how can you now convince Israelis that dismantling settlements in the WB won't lead to missile fire from the WB based on teh Gaza precedent?

Thehoneybadger - I was in Magaluf once. The young British tourists there were disgraceful. Couldn't believe how they treated the locals, what disrespect. Just saying....(has about as much relevance as your post about young Israeli tourists in Sinai)

shak looking at the death of the eight in Khan Younis, Israel stated that it phoned them but they came back too soon after. Yep, they should have known not to return until there is a crater where what used to be their home. Courteous Israel phone to say run for your lives, as we are about to destroy your lives.

Call me crazy, but I have young kids and if I got a notice that the Israeli army were about to target my house, I'd get them as far away from danger as possible.

Are you trying to be funny shak or does the very real Palestinian plight just not register?

How far away would you get them from Israeli onslaught? From one side of Gaza to the other? Until that gets bombed, then where? To another spot until it is bombed. Then you run away again within Gaza trying to keep your children safe, until ground troops arrive and you realise there is nowhere to keep your children safe. The soldiers could use your children as human shields to protect themselves. Tell me, where would you take your children in Gaza to protect them from Israel? You can't get them out of Gaza, Israel will not allow children to leave Gaza. In all the horror that your children would witness in Gaza, God help them if one picked up a stone and threw it at a soldier, he could be detained if not shot - just hope that Israel shows 'restraint' towards your child.

Let's say Israel did show mercy and didnt shoot your child or detain for throwing a stone, It only razed your home to the ground. It was after all responding to a rocket being launched by Hamas but as it loves to use the word 'regrettably' your children have to pay the price, it wasnt their 'intention'. Now what would you do? Tell Israel that you understand its plight and the disproportionate action and rage at Hamas for throwing a rocket and your kids for throwing stones.

You're very selective in what you read.

Read the article from the Palestinian website.

Here's the quote (again) to help you:
"Ashraf al-Qidra told Ma'an seven Palestinians, among them two children under five years of age, were killed in an airstrike on Khan Younis.
Dozens of locals had gathered on the roof of the house after the family received a notice from Israeli authorities that it would be targeted, al-Qidra said."

So they knew the house was going to be targeted but decided they'd take their kids and go up on to the roof? WTF?