I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

And, yes, after you receive a notice that your house will be targeted (because it's being used by Hamas for military purposes), you absolutely should evacuate and take your children with you.

Lives, especially those of children, are far more important (well, that's what I think, I can see you disagree).

A mother who has so little humanity as to call Palestinian mothers whose children are victims of Israeli bombing 'severely disturbed' on a day when a mother and her six children were obliterated in their sleep with no warning is beyond my comprehension. Disgusting. Keep dehumanising the Palestinians though even as you see children crying in fear and terror on the news as they see the rubble of their neighbours' house... They deserve it, right? Because of where they live.

Exactly quivering.

I think it's fine to raise questions about whether a civilian house was indeed a legitimate military target, hiding a military installation (or just where a military leader happened to be, maybe then not so). That's an important issue.

It's also fine to question whether air attacks will actually achieve anything (I know I question it - I think the solution, other than a ground invasion which NO ONE wants - is political, what hasn't worked by force is unlikely to work by more force).

And the extent of civilian casualties, even in the pursuit of those who are attacking you, is a very important issue. Israel, even if trying to minimise casualties, often doesn't do enough (imo). Is the forewarning system considered sufficient to prevent innocent casualties? Clearly it doesn't always work (although I don't know of any other army which does this - Russia certainly didn't in Grozny!). Intent to avoid civilian casualties is necessary but not sufficient. Outcomes are important too.

But for yruapita to try to justify Hamas militants making their own children stand on roofs to act as human shields for a building? That's astounding.

And surely Hamas, with all the effort that they've clearly put in to stockpiling rockets, could have put some of that effort in to civil defence? Oh, but wait, that might mean FEWER civilian casualties. Clearly people who put children on the roofs of houses that they know are about to be blown up don't actually care about their own people's lives. Martyrdom or victory!

I feel desperately sorry for the Palestinians. Not only are they victims of Israel but they are victims of their own elected representatives who are desperate to escalate this situation. I only hope that Netanyahu doesn't get drawn in. Hamas are pretty isolated in the Arab world now that Egypt is under Al-Sisi and the Saudis aren't too impressed with them, they need a war with Israel to improve their status. I hope Israel doesn't give it to them.

Praying that Abbas, Egypt or Turkey manage to intervene and negotiate a truce. It's the only way out. The longer this goes on, the greater the chance a missile from Hamas will hit something important (and the more the Palestinian death toll with increase). If one of Hamas' missiles gets through and there are serious Israeli casualties, the pressure on Netanyahu to do something will be immense and it will be a disaster for the Palestinians as well as the Israelis. Iron Dome is protecting Palestinians more than it's even protecting Israelis.

They don't deserve it springheeled, of course not. No one has said they do.

But they wouldn't be dead if Hamas would have stopped firing missiles.

Isn't the first responsibility of an elected government to protect its citizens?

And, yes, quivering is quite right that it's beyond comprehensible that someone who KNEW that a building was about to be bombed would gather their children up and put them on the roof of that building. How is that defensible in any shape or form?!

You don't like it, and neither do I, but the simple fact is that civilian deaths in conflict are not considered illegal under international law. It's a question of intent and how hard the military tried to avoid civilian deaths. This isn't just Palestinians/Israelis but was the case when Russia invaded Chechnya or when NATO bombed Serbia. You can't target civilians, you must try to minimise civilian casualties but unavoidable civilian deaths in conflict zones are considered acceptable.

I'm not justifying air strikes per se. I don't think they work. Israel won't wipe out Hamas through air strikes (or even a ground invasion). Hamas WANT a ground invasion. The only solution will be political.

Some shocking images on BBC News right now :(

I'm just trying to imagine having 1 minute to get myself and my children out of he'd and a safe distance from my home. I don't know if we could do it in that timeframe but I would certainly be trying.

Some good analyses from Haaretz on Egypt's potential to actually foster a ceasefire. Unfortunately, it looks like Egypt won't be in any hurry because they'd quite like to see Hamas weakened.

I wonder why Abbas isn't mentioned given that there's a unity government? He doesn't hold much sway over Israel right now, unlike Egypt, but surely he must have some influence with Hamas (although probably far less in Gaza than in the WB)?

www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.603889
www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.603878
www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.604366

I just wanted to say thank you for such an interesting and balanced thread. Good to see debate without too much antagonism.
Just wish it wasn't needed

The fake pity from shak for the palestinians is disturbing and very uncomfortable reading. Israel have launched hundreds of bombs on an area 25 miles by 5 miles. Where are the palestinians supposed to run to. How dare you mock the mothers on the roof. Maybe they were there trying to show it was a civilian home with children in it. Maybe in the 1 minute allotted to run they desperately tried to save their lives.

Hamas may be trying to kill your father, granted. But Israel is succeeding in murdering innocent palestinians. The images on the news are horrific. I'm proud of the rabbis and Jewish folk who have held demonstrations against israeli terrorism in London and NYC this week.

Years ago I volunteered at a project which brought together palestinians and Jewish families. I was told that one of the reasons mothers rush to the roof is to try and identify the house as one containing children. In the short time they have to evacuate thats sometimes the only option. So to state that they are choosing a 'roof party' at this time is a terrible statement to make and actually brought tears to my eyes. How truly despicable.

Israeli soldiers talk about what occupation really means for them and the truth of Israeli treatment of Palestinians and how that brutalises soldiers

Gaza is a ghetto, of course it is, curfews, controlling exit and entrance, check points, massive delays, threatening behaviour, bullying behaviour by the army. What isn't a ghetto here? Be honest.

cleanmean
I didn't know you were omniscient! How clever of you to have found out my true feelings.

I actually think it's very rude to question the veracity of another poster's feelings but since you feel OK doing it, I feel OK saying that I don't believe a word of what you said you were told by Palestinian women.

I appreciate that you'd like to believe that mothers with their children went on to the roof as they had no choice as that fits your narrative but the quote from the Palestinian news agency shows something quite different (no mention of mothers either, who knows who gathered up the children?):
"Ashraf al-Qidra told Ma'an seven Palestinians, among them two children under five years of age, were killed in an airstrike on Khan Younis.
Dozens of locals had gathered on the roof of the house after the family received a notice from Israeli authorities that it would be targeted, al-Qidra said."

They GATHERED on the roof WITH children AFTER receiving notice that the house was going to be targetted. There is no sign here that these were desperate mothers who didn't have time to evacuate. They had time to gather their neighbours together FFS! This is Hamas (it was the house of a senior Hamas miltiant) deciding to martyr their own children - as they say, martyrdom or victory.

It might be difficult to understand but you can feel sorry for the Palestinians and yet feel angry with Hamas for what they're doing. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I do apologize however for the use of the word 'roof party'. It was tongue in cheek sarcasm (guilty as charged that I have a tendency to sarcasm), not flippancy. It's something which is too shocking to be flippant about.

I'm sorry you were so offended by the use of the term that you cried. Personally I cry at the loss of life on both sides rather than a poor choice of words (but only crocodile tears for the Palestinians - but you knew that already)

Shak: there you go again - accusing other posters of lying and making things up.

Calling the annihilation of a whole load of Gazans a 'roof party' and then saying it's a result of your 'tongue in cheek sarcasm' (which is a tautology btw, if I'm being pedantic).

there's no tongue in cheek sarcasm about dead kids unless you have dehumanised them to the point of zero compassion.

it is 25miles by 5miles. you can't get in or out. houses are regularly bombed. children get shot by soldiers. everyone knows people who have been killed. i should say everyone is pretty disturbed actually - to scorn a mother for being disturbed just beggars belief.

i would think it's a hot bed of ptsd and despair.

when you live in a prison of 25 miles by 5 filled with bombed houses and rubble and shit infrastructure etc etc where do you move you to next? how are you going to ever have a proper home again? when israel calls to 'tell you' to get out i wouldn't be that surprised if some people just mentally, emotionally, whatever haven't got it in them to do it. living like that and knowing the bit of safety and 'yours' that you've managed to carve out in the shape of a home is about to be blown to pieces from the air in a minutes time by a military force that you can never bloody escape might be the last straw.

Quivering I have no sympathy for Hamas, despite their desperation. They have to accept responsibility for their part in this crisis.

Perhaps you can now comment on the photo below which is being passed around Facebook and Twitter. Some have said it is extremely informative of the israeli people.

Sorry that should read informative of the mentality of the israeli people.

In case anyone can't see it properly it shows Israelis in a sderot bringing chairs on a hilltop to watch cinema style as bombs fall on Gaza. Cheering.