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Call for fertility ban for obese or too thin

162 replies

Joolstoo · 30/08/2006 12:38

On the NHS -
But if you smoke or are gay you're safe

discuss

is it discriminatory or sensible?

OP posts:
CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:33

Surely infertility is not an illness in the traditional sense of the word - you are not going to die from infertility are you (though you may be very unhappy and have your life totally screwed up of course)

I suppose the theory is to preserve life before creating it iykwim.

I am considering IVF at the moment. I don't know if I would qualify for nhs help but tbh I would go private anyway, I think the nhs is overstretched enough as it is treating sick people

SpaceCadet · 30/08/2006 13:34

DSW-dont get me started on hospital pen pushers..i worked 14 hour shifts with no break with just another agency nurse..because our government would not pay acceptable nursing wages.

kittywits · 30/08/2006 13:34

I disagree with you. No one has a right to have children.

FullOfTestosterone · 30/08/2006 13:35

DHW,

I used the heart transplant example because I would think it is easy to see that they don't grow in trees, and are not being used by the pencil pushers. There are very few. How would you decide who gets one?

Yes, in a rosy world everybody should have everything. Unfortunately reality is not like that, is it?

SenoraPostrophe · 30/08/2006 13:35

no, desperatescousewife, there isn't enough money per se. there still wouldn't be enough money even if they sacked all the penpushers, and then the nhs would fall to bits anyway as there's be no-one to organise the cleaners and pay the nurses.

wannaBe1974 · 30/08/2006 13:35

fff I agree with you. A child is not a right. Nobody has the "right" to have a child. A child is a blessing and something which all of us who have been blessed with this should be thankful for.

MrsFio · 30/08/2006 13:36

but the emotional impact of deperately wanting to have children and not being able to have them is immense also. It may not be A RIGHT but I would like to think all people had access to IVF if they were infertile, at least an attempt or so. i know many couples who were denied the right to even adopt years ago because they had previous marriages (without children), you cant bloody win

CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:37

actually article 12 of the Human Rights Act says

Friday, 29 September, 2000, 15:20 GMT 16:20 UK
Human Rights Act: What the articles say

Click on the categories below to read the relevant article of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The right to life l Freedom from torture, inhuman and degrading treatment l Freedom from forced labour l Right to Liberty l Fair trial l l Retrospective penalties l Privacy l Freedom of conscience l Freedom of expression l Freedom of assembly l Marriage and family l Freedom from discrimination l First Protocol

----------------

Article 2: Right to Life

(1) Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which the penalty is provided by law.
(2) Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary- (a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;
(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained;
(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

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----------------

Article 3: Inhuman treatment

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Return to top

----------------

Article 4: Slavery

(1) No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.
(2) No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.
(3) For the purpose of this Article the term "forced or compulsory labour" shall not include:
(a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention imposed in accordance to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during conditional release from such detention;
(b) any service of a military character or, in the case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory military service;
(c) any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or well-being of the community;
(d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.

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----------------

Article 5: Right to Liberty

(1) Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
(d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
(e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics and drug addicts or vagrants;
(f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.
(2) Everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language which he understands, of the reason for his arrest and of any charge against him.
(3) Everyone arrested or detained in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1(c) of this Article shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorised by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release pending trial. Release may be conditioned by guarantees to appear for trial.
(4) Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings by which the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful.
(5) Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this Article shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

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----------------

Article 6: Right to a fair trial

(1) In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
(2) Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
(3) Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights -

(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

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----------------

Article 7: Retrospective crimes

(1) No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

(2) This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time it was committed, was criminal according to the general law recognised by civilised nations.

Return to top

----------------

Article 8: Right to privacy

(1) Everyone has the right for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

(2) There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Return to top

----------------

Article 9: Freedom of conscience

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

(2) Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Return to top

----------------

Article 10: Freedom of Expression

(1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Return to top

----------------

Article 11: Freedom of Assembly

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

(2) No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

This Article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the state.

Return to top

Men and women of marriageable age shall have the right to marry and to found a family

so legally you do...?

CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:37

actually article 12 of the Human Rights Act says

Friday, 29 September, 2000, 15:20 GMT 16:20 UK
Human Rights Act: What the articles say

Click on the categories below to read the relevant article of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The right to life l Freedom from torture, inhuman and degrading treatment l Freedom from forced labour l Right to Liberty l Fair trial l l Retrospective penalties l Privacy l Freedom of conscience l Freedom of expression l Freedom of assembly l Marriage and family l Freedom from discrimination l First Protocol

----------------

Article 2: Right to Life

(1) Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which the penalty is provided by law.
(2) Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary- (a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;
(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained;
(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

Return to top

----------------

Article 3: Inhuman treatment

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Return to top

----------------

Article 4: Slavery

(1) No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.
(2) No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.
(3) For the purpose of this Article the term "forced or compulsory labour" shall not include:
(a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention imposed in accordance to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during conditional release from such detention;
(b) any service of a military character or, in the case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory military service;
(c) any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or well-being of the community;
(d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.

Return to top

----------------

Article 5: Right to Liberty

(1) Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
(d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
(e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics and drug addicts or vagrants;
(f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.
(2) Everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language which he understands, of the reason for his arrest and of any charge against him.
(3) Everyone arrested or detained in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1(c) of this Article shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorised by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release pending trial. Release may be conditioned by guarantees to appear for trial.
(4) Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings by which the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful.
(5) Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this Article shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

Return to top

----------------

Article 6: Right to a fair trial

(1) In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
(2) Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
(3) Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights -

(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

Return to top

----------------

Article 7: Retrospective crimes

(1) No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

(2) This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time it was committed, was criminal according to the general law recognised by civilised nations.

Return to top

----------------

Article 8: Right to privacy

(1) Everyone has the right for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

(2) There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Return to top

----------------

Article 9: Freedom of conscience

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

(2) Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Return to top

----------------

Article 10: Freedom of Expression

(1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Return to top

----------------

Article 11: Freedom of Assembly

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

(2) No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

This Article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the state.

Men and women of marriageable age shall have the right to marry and to found a family

so legally you do...?

CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:37

whoops only meant to post article 12!

MrsFio · 30/08/2006 13:38

oh ffs! CD

SenoraPostrophe · 30/08/2006 13:39

this has been tested hasn't it?

I think it was interpreted as meaning that no-one can interfere with you right to have a child (i.e. they can't forcibly sterilise you), but they don't have to pay for your fertility treatment.

Joolstoo · 30/08/2006 13:40

er, sophable, I was merely quoting the news reports on television, frankly I don't have much interest in other peoples lifestyles that's entirely up to them.

IIIIIIIIIIIII thank you!

OP posts:
beckybrastraps · 30/08/2006 13:41

Gosh it's easy to say isn't it? When you've been "blessed".

I've been "blessed" too. Don't know what I wouldn't have done if I hadn't. Could probably afford one stab privately, and then what?

And it is a "right" in a way. If you are fertile I mean. Nobody takes away your ability to have a child, no matter how ill-suited you might be to parenthood, or whether or not you can afford to look after it. It is your "right" to have as many as you want. So where's the difference?

wannaBe1974 · 30/08/2006 13:41

yes there are pen pushers, yes the civil service is full of them. But if you got rid of all of them there would still not be enough money. How do you prioritise funds, because there has to be priority. If you have two people waiting for a heart and one has been waiting for three years and is a heavy smoker/drinker/is overweight, whose life expectancy is less than the other person who has only been on the list for 3 months but who does not drink/smoke/is not overweight. You only have one heart, who do you give it to? the smoker has been waiting the longest, but the non smoker has a better prognosis. In reality, you have to give the one heart to the person who will best benefit from it.

MrsFio · 30/08/2006 13:41

I think it is easy to sit in judgement of something when you have no idea

suejonez, i am sorry your ivf failed aswell but I think you should have been able to access your quota of 3 attempts on the nhs

CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:42

no I agree

You should pay yourself

That's very tough but I think as someone said it has to stop somewhere. The NHS was not designed for this type of expenditure

SenoraPostrophe · 30/08/2006 13:42

I'm not saying we shouldn't pay, just that it isn't a "right".

And both obesity and underweightness are things that are relatively easy to fix, which is why I don't see the controversy really.

magnolia1 · 30/08/2006 13:42

Well its a good bloody job I only needed Clomid then!!! I was 6.5 stone when trying for dd1 and nothing I did would put on weight. No medical condition and my weight was not the reason for not falling pregnant.

It has taken 4 kids (nearly 5) for me to actually put on weight.

If they won't treat someone with a Bmi of lower than 19 but that person has tried everything to put weight on but she happens to just be a skinny framed, not a lot of fat, kind of person she is not allowed help to concieve??

What a load of bullshit

magnolia1 · 30/08/2006 13:44

How is being underweight easy to fix SP??? Because if you know a miracle please let me know as the only thing that has helped me put on weight in the past 11 years is HAVING KIDS

wannaBe1974 · 30/08/2006 13:44

beckybrastraps of course it's easy to say. But I have been in a situation where I genuinely thought that I would be unable to have a child, and I am now in a position where I am unlikely to be able to have another child, due to the fact my dh has a low sperm count. If I had been unable to have any children it would have been devostating for me, but not life threatening.

MrsFio · 30/08/2006 13:44

oh and all people can afford fertility treatment can they?

do you know how much they pay for a cashier at tesco?

kittywits · 30/08/2006 13:45

The difference I think becky is that you're not asking people to pay thousands to fund it. Sure it costs the state and ultimately the tax payer to pay for ante natal care, bring the child in to the world and then pay child benefit, schooling and other such stuff, but for IVF you are asking them to pay thousand on top of that. That to me is a huge difference.

CountessDracula · 30/08/2006 13:46

bugger all I should think Fio
But how can the nhs fund everything that everyone wants?

SenoraPostrophe · 30/08/2006 13:46

so magnolia, you're saying you should have been given IVF then?

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