Britishness- and multi culturalism

[lemonysnickett]

Do you think that the curent thinking of moving away from multi culturalism to a society that teaches more about Britishness, will give us a more cohesive and respectful society? I think there is a problem that too many indigenous British people are very unaware themselves about what being British means, apart from the fact that they were born in Britain.Rather than focus the argument on how immigrant populations do not accept British culture and values, should we not be asking if the indigenous white British population are truly willing to accept that someone of a different skin colour/race/religion are as British as they are.

I think we are all guilty of not really knowing what it means to be british.The stereotype is white christian etc bit the reality is so very different now.I think our cultural traditions etc are vital to our identity and the traditions of iother cultures/religions who also live here have never really crossed over into my every day life and so I am quite ignorant of them tbh.I am not averse to learning about other cultures but if I am honest I am quite lazy in that dept and I don't think radical types are as british as me but am willing to be convinced otherwise iyswim

Some Scots would feel they are Scots first.

Britain's always been multicultural, though.

I know it has always been multi cultural I am only referring to the current wave of radicalism which has a threatening edge to it.I watched a terrifying documentary last week about young muslims and there is a growing trend among them to try and distance themselves and several even said they were disgusted with their parents for trying to integrate as that is absolutely not what they want.Current situations worldwide are exacerbating the idea of a them and us society

The real point is in our current climate, we ae now thinking that the multi/c that we have taught for the last 30 years has not stopped large sections of the popuplation from becoming isolated and turning away from being british. My thought is that we are so stuck in our thinking that British means white christian. that it would be difficult to see the majority of the population looking at immigrants as being british. For example in the States it is more of a natural thought to think of someone who is non white as being an American.
Can we really say we would hold the same view here?
True we have always been multi cultural, but previous immigrations to this country ie the Jews fleeing persecution in Europe and the Hugenots fleeing the same in France were essentially white people....now we have many more people of colour which involves another level of acceptance.

I wouldn't trust documentaries to give an entirely characteristic view, though - the programme makers had to present views like that, it makes good telly. Just as print journalists (I am one) have to find the cases to illustrate a particular POV a lot of the time.

But what do I know, I'm idiotically multicultural in my origins and so is my partner, so I'm not very good on echt Britishness, whatever that is.

The fact that there are views like that is what saddens and worries me however few feel like that.

How many people could centre their feeling of @brisishness' on colour and the majority religion? I don't think it's what makes you know what your country is. I would say that the weather, queuing, a ramshackle-make-do-Fred-Carno approach to things, bonfire night, windbreakds, humour etc are far closer to anything that you might call identity. This has been enriched by language (from everywhere!), food, old and enthusiastically newly introduced etc etc.

And that's before we get to 'acceptance' between English and Welsh, Scottish or Irish!!

'Britishness' has always been and still is on the move. Look how enthusiastically we have supplanted so many little things with American imports - you are an 'old fogey', probably, if you crave the original, and contrast that with the attitude to things we assimilate from ex-commonwealth countries, for e.g.

Thgis whole issue, for me, is unpleasantly underpinned by a sense that if there is a problem, it's now 'the immigrants' who need to change.

In the experience of my extended family, the actual immigrants 9i.e first generation, new arrivals) from ex-british colonies etc arrived full of a sense of 'britishness' which they were proud to hold and eager to apply. It is their children and grandchildren who have learned that however britsh their parents were, and strove to be, they would still subject to abuse on the street and ridicule in the press and light entertainment.

Where is the British stiff upper-lip? That was obliterated under a mountain of flowers in cellophane afyer Diana's death. And as for radical movements - they have always been bubbling under, from Welsh Nationalist arsonists, to the IRA to anilmal rights body-exhumers. All prpocluded in the laws which uphold our 'british values', just as the actions of newer radical groups are.

Yes I agree with OP
Here in Autralia, Australian-ness is what keeps this society together. We are incredibly diverse but we are all Australian, Blow-ins or Diggers we all know we were VERY lucky to get here.

Of course we have unspeakable issues within the Aboriginal community who are cruelly displaces but I won't go in to that here, jsut don't want to seem to be ignoring them

Anyway, back to topic, when I come back to Blighty in 4 weeks I expect to be invigorated and astonished by The State Of The Nation in equal measures. it will be interesting to say the least, as an expat with a multicultual family returning Home. Don't forget my meetup on October 7th, OK?

I was brought up in Northern Ireland so the fear of that sort of daily threat is very real to me and something I hoped never to see here

Suzy - do you think it's different, though, where (unspakable aissues with aboriginal people apart..) 'everyone's an immigrant' - like in America? Whereas here, people who have long forgotten their own Norman roots feel able to construct a sort of 'hierarchy of immigration' base on timescale and a host of other factors?

Yes I do, Blu
The George Cross in particular is taboo, is it not, in some circles and I think that a case of standing up and saying "It's OK to be a Jute or an Angle or Norman or Saxon just as it is to be a Windward Islander or a Pole as long as we all co-exist and contribute to this British Society" is very much needed and would do you all the power of good

Sorry, it's Second Glass of Wine here and Barry Manilow and his TERRIFYING plastic surgery is on the Emmies on cable so I am not firing on all cylinders

yes I do think it's different, when I go to my Australian Citizenship ceremony next year I will have it stated in no uncertain terms that I am now An Australian and have a clear and precise summary of all that entails to which I must swear. That's important. It makes a nation

Is there a generally held view of what it is to be british in modern times? If there is I dont what what it is. Who are the indigenous population of this country - isnt the queen even in an interloper? How multicultural is a society where different culture consider it an abhoration to marry someone of a different culture? As far as I can see many children are being brought up with the parents limited values from all culures and they are the ones having the most influence.

I think if you ask a dozen people what it means to be "British", you will get a dozen different answers.

My parents' generation seem to think it means bread and jam for tea and none of this foreign muck, that you could go out and leave your door open and there weren't all these people coming over here and stealing our jobs, people had respect, etc etc.

Try to explain that, as an island nation, we have continually assimilated ideas from other countries and cultures, and they just won't have it.

You and the Wiggles, Suzy, you and the Wiggles.
One Nation, Under a groove

Yes the Wiggles
One Celt, one Italian Catholic, One ordinary Aussie and one Asian and all Australian
Did you know Jeff is 53?????
The Fragrant Boys have grown out of the WIggles now I haveno one to sing Go Captain, Go! with now

unquietdad - can we look at your quote again?

"My parents' generation seem to think it means bread and jam for tea and none of this foreign muck, that you could go out and leave your door open and there weren't all these people coming over here and stealing our jobs, people had respect, etc etc."

let's reword it

'bread and jam for tea, you could go out and leave your door open, there was plenty of work for all and people had respect for each other'

there's absolutely nothing wrong with that statement now is there and it's one I'd agree with!

The older generation are hankering for their youth, things went at a slower pace and people spoke to each other and said 'hello' - I know I AM that old git!

My future bil lived in Australia for a short time, around 10 years ago now. Re the Wiggles, I remember him saying there was a bit of a racist anti-Jeff campaign going on, with a group of people waving 'Jeff Go Home' banners at concerts.

Always wondered how short-lived this was - do you know anything about it, suzy?

Awww, that was probably in Queensland

Never heard about that

Pointydog - they could have been music-lovers rather than racists!

Suzy - Go captain Go! has just entertained DS round the clock during our rained-off holiday, and I am all Wiggled out. I don't think I could share a continent with them, citizen-ceremony or not!

blu!

Are there subliminal messages in Wiggle videos? Anyone tried to play them backwards?

Why do all kids watch them mesmorised and need a 2 hourly fix?

I'm Scottish first and British (along way) second. Yet i was born in SOuth Africa anf have a really mixed up heritage. I've lived in Scoltand since I was 3 and it is only only national identity I have ever known. My parents are proud to cal themsleves Scottish too - even thoguh my dad (apparently) still has a South African accent - 42 year later!

I ilve very close to a strongly Asian area and am gald that my ds gets exposed to other cultures at his primary school, 60%of whose pupils are from ethnic minorities.

.... and yet, I do get upset when what used to be the norm for the British culture is changed "because it might offend". SO we can't have a Christmas Fair - but we can have a Diwali Assmebly. (To be fair, we also have a Chrstmas Assembly). Th words to carols get altered - Away in manger" gets "The little baby Jesus aseleep in a crib" instead of "the little Lord Jesus...." And I'm not even religious!

There is a difference between absorbing, tolerating and changing things.

Ds deosn't notice the colour of people's skins - in fact he usually draws himself as brown as he has an extremeley olive skin (and draws me as pink!), so I am glad he is being brought up "blind" to skin colours.

Err,is there a different DVD system in OZ because a friend in Brisbane gave me 2 Wiggles DVDs and I can't play them in Wales or Turkey.

(Am getting fecking desperate for ideas on how to keep 'em entertained.Only so many things you can do with/to a kebab.)

it depends on what you mean by multiculturalism and britishness really. It is of course very hard to define britishness in terms of values etc, but you can define it in broad terms as:

1. speaks (or is learning) english, welsh or british sign language
2. doesn't seek to avoid other british people

and tbh if multiculturalism includes people who don't do either of those things then yes we should move away from it. But I suspect it doesn't and that this debate is all a load of political smoke and mirrors anyway. as for asking if the indiginous population can accept immigrants as being british - well I think that quite obviously some of them can't. but sadly i don't think there's a lot we can do about that except what is already being done wrt education etc.