Britishness- and multi culturalism

[lemonysnickett]

Do you think that the curent thinking of moving away from multi culturalism to a society that teaches more about Britishness, will give us a more cohesive and respectful society? I think there is a problem that too many indigenous British people are very unaware themselves about what being British means, apart from the fact that they were born in Britain.Rather than focus the argument on how immigrant populations do not accept British culture and values, should we not be asking if the indigenous white British population are truly willing to accept that someone of a different skin colour/race/religion are as British as they are.

It is a good question whether culture should be "recent". My view is that although there is great value in the stuff you inherit, the health of your culture is what it is doing, not what people did 200 years ago. Dickens or Newton are now part of mankind's heritage not just Britain. Indeed, people like Locke or Swift are better known to Americans than their descendant countrymen.

On that score, we're doing pretty well, we do lots of stuff. Of course most of it is rubbish, but it was ever thus. Shakespeare had lots of competitors, but no peers, we just don't think about them much.

As for Noble prizes, senapostrophe back my argument nicely.
We have 5 in the last 15 years.
To put that in perspective the USA has more than 3 dozen, and such "leading" nations as Timor has two as does S.Africa.
There was a time when there were individual Cambridge colleges who won more Nobels than France.
The so-called Sussex "university" has shut down it's Nobel prize winning Chemistry department, by diverting specially allocated funds to media studies and other non subjects.

It is a good question whether culture should be "recent". My view is that although there is great value in the stuff you inherit, the health of your culture is what it is doing, not what people did 200 years ago. Dickens or Newton are now part of mankind's heritage not just Britain. Indeed, people like Locke or Swift are better known to Americans than their descendant countrymen.

On that score, we're doing pretty well, we do lots of stuff. Of course most of it is rubbish, but it was ever thus. Shakespeare had lots of competitors, but no peers, we just don't think about them much.

As for Noble prizes, senapostrophe back my argument nicely.
We have 5 in the last 15 years.
To put that in perspective the USA has more than 3 dozen, and such "leading" nations as Timor has two as does S.Africa.
There was a time when there were individual Cambridge colleges who won more Nobels than France.
The so-called Sussex "university" has shut down it's Nobel prize winning Chemistry department, by diverting specially allocated funds to media studies and other non subjects.

It is a good question whether culture should be "recent". My view is that although there is great value in the stuff you inherit, the health of your culture is what it is doing, not what people did 200 years ago. Dickens or Newton are now part of mankind's heritage not just Britain. Indeed, people like Locke or Swift are better known to Americans than their descendant countrymen.

On that score, we're doing pretty well, we do lots of stuff. Of course most of it is rubbish, but it was ever thus. Shakespeare had lots of competitors, but no peers, we just don't think about them much.

As for Noble prizes, senapostrophe back my argument nicely.
We have 5 in the last 15 years.
To put that in perspective the USA has more than 3 dozen, and such "leading" nations as Timor has two as does S.Africa.
There was a time when there were individual Cambridge colleges who won more Nobels than France.
The so-called Sussex "university" has shut down it's Nobel prize winning Chemistry department, by diverting specially allocated funds to media studies and other non subjects.

How many people in this country actually consider themselves british though?? Be honest most people living in England would say they were english first as would people in both Scotland & Wales say they were scottish or welsh. For some reason over the years its almost been bullied into everyone that to be proud to be english/british is something to be ashamed of after the waves of the BNP and related groups. Musn't hang up a union jack cause you might be considered to be racist or not interested in recognising the fact that Britian now has many other cultures living within its shores. I think we all need to tolerate each other that bit more and respect that we all have different beliefs etc but have the ability to do it whilst still living in the same place. And that applies to cultures across the board not just 'British' groups. To try and force either issue ie to be multi cultural or embrace everything thats british is just to annoy people of all cultures that they are being made to do something as opposed to allowing cultures to evolve with each other. This is not the imperial times!!! Add the fact that in the lsat 20 years political correctness has gone mad, it does nothing to promote togetherness and simply alienates us all even further.
By the way - what does the word 'British' conjour up for everyone?

5 out of a population of 60 million is a higher number per head gthan 34 out of a population of 500 million. dunno what the population of east timor is - but I'm pretty sure we're still in the top 5. or is nothing worth anything unless you're number 1?

and as for "Locke and Swift are better known to Americans..." what?? admitedly not enough Brfitish people are familiar with them but I think we'd compete pretty well in a nationwide survey on the subject (ie. neither the brits nor the yanks would know that much).

I'm not trying to drown everyone in patriotism here by the way, all this stuff is in response to some of the nihilistic "britain has no culture" stuff below. I think we do have a lot to share. but I do wish people would define multiculturalism properly before saying we should move away from it.

actually, countto10, that isn't true. the VAST majority of english people count themselves as British first. It's only the minority nations who see themselves as their sub-nationality first. It's not the nicest example, but note that there is no "english" national party.

and if by "political correctness has gone mad" you mean that you can't have lazy racist stereotypes on telly or in school text books any more, and that shops have to make an effort to allow wheelchair access, then never mind, eh.

SP - totally agree with you on the British culture having a lot to offer - to me I think its just whether people choose to embrace it and whether schools fully teach it or not. Look at its arts, look at its literature, look at its architecture, look at its history. They are all things that the rest of the world regularly drop in to see and take part in. The brits haven't stormed the recent Emmies for no reason!!! Just because brits choose not to know about their own culture, does not mean that it does not exist.

SP - political correctness can be different from equal opportunities and rights. When you install rulings etc because you as a body think there might possibly be a minute issue as opposed to it being a positive step in eliminating discrimation it only serves to anger the people it doesn't serve and alienate those it does introducing yet more divides. Why was it such a problem for some local government officials across the country when individuals chose to fly english flags during the world cup for example leading to various bans? It wasn't to do with passing horses!!!!

Perhaps I deal with more Americans than senorapostrophe, but you should be aware that Swift and Lock are part of mainstream syllabie at US schools. So much so that there is a "John Lock" in the US series Lost who up against a mad french Thoreau. This is a mass market series, and I would bet good money that less than 5% of Brits spot this, or indeed even when it ispelt out, get the reference or relevance.
Not saying Brits are more ignorant, just taught different things, though the average American does have a vastly superior grasp of philosophy.

schools do fully teach it I think: all kids learn about Shakespeare and usually at least one other great British writer, they learn some British history, and I don't imagine they've taken local architecture off the curriculum though I admit they might have.

I think the thing that kids aren't taught, but which children of many other nations are is specifically that britain is great, but then that is no bad thing imo: I don't want to live in a country where "un-british" can be used as a catch-all insult for people who disagree with you like "un-american" is for some americans (for example)

countTo10 - come on: a couple of people objected to st george flags and all of a sudden "political correctness has gone mad and everyone is against the english". it's not true.

dc: no, I don't know that many americans so maybe you're right on that point. I suspect that you deal with a certian type of cosmopolitan american though so are possibly not in any position to generalise either.

If Locke is part of the syllabus I do hope they spell it right, though.

by it's not true, I mean the flag wasn't banned except perhaps in one or two very well publicised localities.

I know what you're saying but in my local area we've had lots of incidents where certain groups have been offered more in the ways of services etc than others and its been for the wrong reasons. Those groups haven't asked for those services, they've had them thrust upon them but they then bear the brunt of the backlash afterwards. Multi cultural has to be just that - multi and I'm not saying that from a we brits don't get as much as the rest, I'm saying that across the board, I just think sometimes the focus can be wrong.
On the flag thing, whilst it might seem an insignficant thing to you, its the principal of it that makes it publicised and again makes the focus wrong 'how dare immigrants get annoyed about us flying our flag' when I bet if you asked 'non-brit' groups they'd probably say they didn't give a damn. A problem that didn't exist is made into a problem by officials that have too much time on their hands!!!!

but that';s the thing: I don't think one immigrant was annoyed. the 2 cases I read about were both very local and both the complainants were well meaning but misguided english people. in one of those cases no-one took any notice anyway.

as for extra services: again, most of the cases you read about turn out to be rather more complex than a simple case of "immigrant gets jumped up queue". much as people like the bnp would like us to believe otherwise.

Please can anyone tell me of a well documented example THAT HE OR SHE PERSONALLY WITNESSED of so called "political correctness gone mad" In my experience it's always "a friend" who was not allowed to fly a St George's flag/talk about man hole covers/order black coffee/ sing baa baa black sheep/ hold a Nativity Play/wish someone a Happy Christmas. I would also like it if someone could give me an example of something that "political correctness" has prevented them saying or doing that was not either racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise offensive whether or not PC rules were applied. Just asking........

Does changing the words to "Away in a Manger" count? It was only a wee change, from "Lord" (as in Lord Jesus) to "Baby", at ds' Christmas assembly. Both my husband and I heard it - and it may even be on our video.

And btw - it was a Christmas Assembly and not a nativity play, although it incorporated a depiction of the nativity. In order to be suitably sensitive to the ethnic mix of thr school, the nativity element was portrayed as "some people believe that this happened" before they did it as "play wthin a play".

To be fair, I couldn't make it to the Diwali Assembly, so I am not sure how that was presented. Dh tels me that it was done as "Hindus believe this".

Being British (and an arts graduate, for my sins) I know absolutely bugger all about philosophy but I do watch Lost and thus I know that John Locke is actually up against (or maybe not, nothing is very clear in Lost) a mad Frenchwoman - Rousseau, as in Jean-Jacques Rousseau, as in "all men are created equal", as in Locke, Rousseau and Hobbes, the three cornerstones of social philosophy.

DC, you maybe don't watch Lost and are thinking of Henry David Thoreau, the American philosopher?

"Please can anyone tell me of a well documented example THAT HE OR SHE PERSONALLY WITNESSED of so called "political correctness gone mad"

No I can't. But I'm sure if I asked around lots of people would be able to give me examples that happened to people they knew...Or read in the Mail of course

I have a specific instance. One mag I used to write for kept bleating on about women in technology and why there were so few. It seem that the net outflow is around 15% per year, and few are taking it up.
I wrote, then re-wrote several times an article explaining my view (with numbers) on what happens.
I got proper numbers, and tried really really hard to avoid sentences of the form "girls make crap decisions because their teachers lie to them".
It was painfully PC. I had it checked by several people for anything that if you tried really hard could be seen as sexist. I even took out the bit that there was not one woman qualified to write the article so I had to do it.

I didn't say that "women need role models". I see that as both patronising and simply wrong. People choose technology from some combination of interest and desire for money. not one person (including the women) I know has ever said they did tech because they admired someone.
This is the standard crap emitted by "spokespepople". I also pointed out that if you do a degree in languages, you simply have no skills for IT. You may have talent, but the discipline is so radically different, that you don't see men with these degrees either.
I went in hard on the bollocks of "people skills".
This is supposed to be the reason employers should drop their "sexist" requirement that staff know anything about computers and hire more women.

IT is not a team sport. I've worked in groups ranging for 2 to 2,500, teams are in effect sides in political disputes rather than coherent functional units. I also self censored the bit where in my sample, more than 50% of the time the women were actually disruptive to the team.

I used phrases of the form "girls are not fully informed of career opportunities or the pay in various jobs". They wouldn't publlish it, and was part of the reason I don't write for them any more.
The article did have positive bits like sipmly telling girls the various pay rates in different careers, and showing them the jobs pages with the complete absence of a demand for the subjects their teachers werre telling them were "really useful".
They were scared of "offending someone". This is a newspaper that regularly accuses government ministers of lying, and covers cases of corruption and incompetence in thr NHS.
I rewrote it several times, but the bottom line is that you can't say that girls make poor choices.
You have to say it's sexism in the workplace.
These days I'm a pimp for very high paying jobs in the city that require high levels of technical skill. Last month I got a woman straight from academia a job offer of £80K first year package.
The bank also chucked in £6,000 relocation so that's she'd feel comfortable changing the tube stop she used.

I will state for a fact that I get extra brownie points for finding women with high levels of skill, even if they've never done it in real life.
The fact is that girls choose dopey subjects.
It is not the case that sexism holds them back, but as a former hiring manager I hardly ever saw a woman who could do anything useful.

Even when a Labour government published a study saying just that, the media studiously ignored it.

"Please can anyone tell me of a well documented example THAT HE OR SHE PERSONALLY WITNESSED of so called "political correctness gone mad"

Does it count if it happened to your dh?
His department was told that in the job advert for a new departmental secretary they couldn't ask for good written English because that was discriminatory. (Though I suspect that was fear of discrimination against the uneducated rather than ethnic minorities.)
(They were also told (being a maths department) that they had to make provision for students with dyscalculia - off topic, but definitely pc gone mad in an educational context and I've seen the memo myself )

I thought we were looking for examples of pc that mitigated against 'Britishness'.

DC - I work in IT and have an humanities degree. Done OK for myself over the years. I think that it depends on your logic skills as much as anything else. I've always scored highly in that area. I would say that I'm most definitely not a girly girl though...mind you that might come from years spent working in entirely male departments full of nerds

I'm not saying humanties make you unemployable.
I'm saying the average is against you, and the decision is too often swayed by dishonest teaching staff.
Also, the cachet of a degree is dropping as we head for 50% of school leavers entering tertiary education.
That means that employers are getting more picky.
Also the job market is about as good as it's going to get, so there's a good chance that someone choosing A level subjects or a degree will quite possibly be entering a rather tougher market in a few years.

I wonder if you interviewed me for that piece DC? I have done a lot of work in that area in the past and I get quite cross with initiatives such as Computer Clubs for Girls (aka teach girls to do pretty pictures on computers and they'll automatically want a career in IT, just like they all want a career in papermaking just now..oh wait, no thats not right... ok lets get Rachel from SClub along instead...). I know some amazing women in IT and engineering and to a woman they chose those career because of strong male parental influences - they looked up to Dad

(sorry very off topic from OP)

To go back on topic - I once met a lowlife from the BNP - degree educated, travelled but lowlife. He told me to f-off back to Scotland because we were part of the reason Britain is no longer great. Got very upset when I laughed in his face.