Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 6

[Roussette]

here is Part 5 but we are ready (nearly) for a new one.

Stack the defence don't give a list of witnesses they will be calling. So although we know through a journalist who spoke to a defence source , that Frankie won't testify. I don't think the judge would
be asking why he wasn't giving evidence.

She may consider that I'm coming to her judgement but I would doubt she would be quizzing the advocates about it

Or maybe she just asked Nel, as state's case is closed. But I wonder then if she did the same when they didn't call Hilton. Botha

It seems to me that these witnesses are supporting the prosecution case ie that the second lot of sounds were the gunshots (they were woken by the final shot so no screaming) then OP shouted help. OP himself said he shouted help after he shot Reeva and cried after he shot her. This morning doesn't seem to be helping the defence at all.

yy the bang and then help help help after 3.15
not good for the defence
according to op
he fired the shots at 3 ish
realised Ms Steenkamp wasn't about and then called for help on the balcony
then broke the door down

But I wonder then if she did the same when they didn't call Hilton. Botha

The thing is with Botha, is that the defence team had already fought his testimony and claimed he was unreliable and so forth.

More delays because 3 witnesses have children and are late/not there. Roux says he will have hopefully finished the defence case by next Tuesday.

I am just so surprised that people just don't turn up in time. Does this happen in english courts?

Today's witness is on her way but is finding somewhere to park and it may be half an hour??

Could it be that roux has shuffled witnesses around so its all a bit short notice?

given that it appears that a witness can just refuse to appear, could it be that some of the defence witnesses are now saying they don't want to come?

Are you saying that the witnesses don't agree with OPs version - gun shots, call for help, baseball bat?

I'm reluctant to think any of the ear witnesses are particularly valid - early morning, sleepy, woken suddenly, at varying distance from the house. Not sure any of them could be particularly accurate on times and noises.

I am just so surprised that people just don't turn up in time.

From what I can tell, they told them the wrong time to turn up, anticipating that Nel would ask more questions than he did. Not that they're being slack.

Roux didn't want to waste loads of witness time with them sitting about behind the doors where they could be at home with children/at work.

I quite like it. It gives me time to do things.

If this is the defence case, it all sounds a bit feeble to me. This is so important and yet they are either late or don't turn up. Totally strange. But as I've never seen a case televised (apart from OJ Simpson which was a different thing altogether) maybe this is normal, dunno.

Looking yes! I have just been helping an elderly neighbour pull up some brambles in her front garden, in the never ending breaks so time not wasted!

Nerf - isn't Frank's room off the kitchen of the house, on the ground floor? So not entirely separate. (According to Telegraph article yesterday here

Ronald - I don't understand (probably just me!) why this is not good for the defence..? I have to say that listening to those witnesses this morning - albeit I only heard part of it but have caught up on the Guardian's live news feed - I thought they corroborated Oscar's version well.

Roussette - I don't think it sounds weird. I can imagine that a lot of people would be extremely apprehensive about appearing (even only in audio) in a globally televised trial. I do agree though that surely Roux will have been able to judge fairly accurately how long it would take, even for Nel to cross-examine the defence witnesses. He must know roughly how it will be played by the other side.

Voice Barry Bateman on Twitter said it as to the left and down a little path hence my confusion.

Are you saying that the witnesses don't agree with OPs version - gun shots, call for help, baseball bat?

Me?

Sort of, I think. He says he shot at 3.00(ish), then went out and yelled for help, then went back at 3.15(ish) to get the door down with the bat.

She's saying she heard one bang (or one set of bangs, I'll have to go back to make that out properly), and then the helps, and then no more bangs.

So it sort of depends what that first bang was that she heard - if she heard the gunshots at 3.00(ish) and then the helps, but then the bat noise was just to quiet for her to hear, then technically this agrees with OP.

However, that relies on the bats being significantly quieter than the guns, and his defence needs them not to be.

If she heard the bat and then the helps, then yes, she disagrees with OPs timeline.

I'm reluctant to think any of the ear witnesses are particularly valid - early morning, sleepy, woken suddenly, at varying distance from the house.

I totally agree with this. It all depends on who had corroborating testimony, whether there was a specific reason to time check, etc.

Voice I just imagined from watching too many dramas on telly probably that they were in a holding room waiting to be called as a witness and if they had to wait there all day, so be it. I always thought there was lots of waiting round. But what do I know!

I thought they corroborated Oscar's version well.

The thing that troubles me is how little they heard. They didn't hear two sets of bangs - the husband didn't hear any bangs at all, only the wife did. Given that we know that there are four gunshots, and some bangs of the cricket bat, clearly their household is in such a position that these noises were not heard.

So if they didn't hear these very loud noises, isn't it possible that they didn't hear/slept through, an argument happening before the bangs?

Looking - all of you! I'm a bit confused.

Well Aimee is looking very relaxed in court today, so I must have been wrong in thinking interfering with evidence is illegal.

The mysterious disappearing phone and Aimee and Clarice spiriting away the handbag under the noses of police guarding the crime scene, therefore irrelevant???

I'm struggling to get my head around it.

"The thing that troubles me is how little they heard. They didn't hear two sets of bangs - the husband didn't hear any bangs at all, only the wife did. Given that we know that there are four gunshots, and some bangs of the cricket bat, clearly their household is in such a position that these noises were not heard.

So if they didn't hear these very loud noises, isn't it possible that they didn't hear/slept through, an argument happening before the bangs?"

thanks for this explanation, finding it hard to put into words why it seems so weird and this sums it up really well.

Surely they would want witnesses that support the shots, help help, bat theory.

These witnesses just don't do that and if they are saying they slept through it then this doesn't discount the arguing theory at all.

I remember in earlier threads people saying that they really wanted to hear witnesses who were closer to the scene before making judgements about statements by the Stipps etc. But these witnesses aren't proving anything - unless the defence are saying that the Stipp/Burger evidence is all a complete fabrication?

The witnesses today fit in perfectly with the prosecution case of bat first, then screams, then gunshots, as heard by Dr Stipps. They were woken by the final gunshot, then heard OP crying and shouting for help.

Next witness is next door neighbour on other side of OP - Ria Motshuane.

finding it hard to put into words why it seems so weird

I'm not sure that I find it weird. If they had air-con, fans and had double glazing and the windows all shut, there's no reason why they would have heard much at all.

Even the bang didn't wake the Mr Nhlengethwa. Mrs Nhlengethwa woke, and then when she was awake, she heard the shouts.

Surely they would want witnesses that support the shots, help help, bat theory.

Yes, I'd have thought so. Anyhow, another neighbour now.

Hello all, ended up deciding to give the thread a miss through the break as with no new testimony coming in people where letting their imaginations run away with them a little and I personally had nothing new to add. Anyway the thread is very much back on track now thankfully.

I am very taken aback with the problems the defence seem to be having in regards to getting witnesses on the stand. With the break in proceedings and given the defence know what witnesses are testifying about and will have a good idea of how long that is likely to take I just can't find a good reason for the lack of witnesses yesterday and the delay today. If I where the judge I would be far from amused. Roux really put her in a position yesterday, what was she meant to do, say no to adjourning and make everybody sit in court without a witness to question all afternoon? Then add today's delay and the defence are pushing the courts patience to the extreme, risky for them as even though the judge can't find OP guilty of anything based on the fact his defence team spears to be in free fall there surely has to be someway the judge can penalise a defence team for this kind of behaviour!

Onto the witnesses we have managed to hear from.
I don't feel they have added much at all. The ear witness testomony from the Standers is really the only fully relevant parts as what happened after help arrived at OP's house isn't really disputed. Ms Stander (nee) didn't show herself to be the nicest person in the world with her reactions on hearing shouts for help in the night but it isn't a crime and she isn't on trial. The one interesting point is she slept with her balcony doors open like the Stipps, it seems that this may be common practice on secure gated developments like silver woods and doesn't help OPs claims of living in fear, especially as he settled in to bed and went to sleep with his doors open even though he claims to have request Reeva shut them before she went to sleep. If you are truly living in the kind of fear he claims I would find it hard to believe you could drift of to sleep in such an insecure position putting so much trust in another person not to fall asleep before shutting the doors. I know that we shouldn't judge others behaviours baced on our own but I wouldn't be able to relax into sleep in that situation even if I had asked my husband to secure the house, people fall asleep without intending to, if it is something that worries me I make sure I do it so I know it has been done.

I find it hard to believe that the Standers are not friends with OP, why would OP call Mr Stander first, before security, Mr Stander had stepped down as estate manager by then, he lived a reasonable distance away, if he isn't a friend then why?
The reason I think OP called the Standers first is that OP wanted help but he wanted help from people he could relay on as discreet, who would not be giving press interviews. Regardless of what happened in the bathroom and if OP knew it was Reeva in the toilet I think his first thoughts where that it wasn't as bad as it was, that the situation was salvageable, his mind tried to minimise things and he wasn't thinking very clearly. I don't think he gave a realistic idea of what had happened to netcare and when he called the Standers he hoped he could get Reeva in the car and to hospital and everything would be okay, he could keep it out of the papers and he had more chance of doing that if Reeva was taken to hospital in a private care by people he knew he could trust rather then have the publicity of an ambulance at his home and the people that would bring who could then go and give info to the press.
In short I think it is likely that OPs reactions, who he called and his actions in the time after he shot Reeva where all about self preservation and managing his public image.
While this gives an idea of the person OP is and also I think shows his unwillingness to be responsible for his actions it doesn't help at all when it comes to the questions about if he knew it was Reeva or not or if he intended to kill the person in the toilet or not.

Will be back with some other thoughts later!