Missing Malaysia Air plane

[KenAdams]

It's so sad. They still haven't found anything, but thinks it's crashed into the sea.

For anyone that hasn't heard

'On Tuesday air force chief Tan Sir Rodzali Daud wasd reported as saying the plane was later detected at 2.40am over the Malacca Strait. He has since denied saying this'

he hasn't said it wasn't detected by military radar - he has said he didn't say it was detected by military radar (ie somebody else said it, presumably)

I too now get the funny feeling that there is something we are not being told.

What I would say is the body language of the senior officials I am watching on TV seems very defensive.

I bet they are defensive. They're being attacked and criticised by China, the families, the world's media. That proves nothing about what they know. Body language means nothing she said with her arms crossed, because that stops me fidgeting with stuff

This was being discussed on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 show today & I thought a few interesting points came to light:

as I understood it, a flying object WAS detected heading West which fits with the time that the plane went missing, but it's almost "incidental" radar i.e general whether there is something in airspace or not rather than specific tracking so they can't tell whether it was this plane or not.

The email from the oil rig worker in Vietnam should be treated with extreme caution as having any veracity; a BBC correspondent on the JV show said he'd contacted the oil company (based in Cyprus) who own the rig, and they have no record of this man being an employee/on the rig.

The plane had Rolls Royce Trent engines fitted which constantly transmit data back to RR HQ in Derby which allows remote fixes to take place - this was from a caller who claimed to be a former aircraft engineer & he was encouraging the JV prog/BBC to contact Rolls Royce to see what time they stopped receiving engine data (and whether that corresponds to air traffic control reports).

Worth a listen on listen again if you're interested in what happened - it was near the beginning of today's programme.

"btw how do you know so much? I'm in awe of your insight & knowledge and your ability to express it so well!"

I've got a degree in aeronautical engineering and I work in junior management at an aircraft manufacturer.

"In your experience do you/those in the industry get the feeling that information is being held back?"

Yes, but things always are held back until a clearer picture starts to emerge.

This whole thing is in chaos right now. There are conflicting reports. You can see why I was cagey about going full speed ahead on the theory that the flight had turned round and was heading int he opposite direction. It's possible it did. But it might not have done.

One thing that they are definitely being cagey about is the military radar tracking story, which is understandable.

Think about it - a military radar identified a fast moving aeroplane, at medium altitude but they don't know what it is. They didn't try to identify it; they didn't scramble fighter jets to intercept it. Basically they didn't follow ANY military protocols at all. If that had been a bomber or a terrorist attack all indications are that it would have got away with the attack while the Malaysian Air Force sat on their behinds watching.

Now that is embarrasing, not to mention stupid.

And it sends a clear message to anyone that may wish Malaysia malice that they could quite easily avoid any interception. No wonder they're covering up!

a flying object WAS detected heading West which fits with the time that the plane went missing,"

On previous nights, a Singapore Airlines flight has passed this point at precisely that time, altitude and speed. I wouldn't be surprised if they find that it's this they detected.

The Malaysians have given the military radar recordings to the US FAA and NTSB, who are analysing the data now. Hopefully the Americans can use their experience and competence to decode what has gone on because the Malaysian authorities seem unable to do so.

Jjuice or anyone else using tomnod.com, which browser are you using ?

It won't work in Chrome or Opera.

Goldie, do you know anything about whether the RR Trent engine fitted to the plane does send data back to RR HQ? Does the FAA have jurisdiction to see that data if it exists?

thanks for answering Goldie

Goldie where is that Singapore flight bound ?

Surely, they can tie up the available data, to see if that flight produced a continuous track or not ?

"Goldie, do you know anything about whether the RR Trent engine fitted to the plane does send data back to RR HQ? Does the FAA have jurisdiction to see that data if it exists?"

I can't say how it works on a Boeing but the system does exist. Normally there would have to be a contract between the airline and Rolls for what's called EHM - Engine Health Monitoring. The arrangement is a quite complicated commercial one. Basically, when you buy an airliner, you have a few choices on how to maintain the engines. You can either do it yourself or you can pay to have the engine manufacturer do it for you. This last thing is called a power-by-the-hour agreement (I'm simplifying it because it's actually complicated and would take me pages to explain). If Malaysian have an EHM contract in a power-by-the-hour agreement with Rolls, then yes. If they don't have such a contract then no. I don't know what contract Malaysian has with Rolls.

There are 3 to 5 countries that have jurisdiction:
Country where the airline operators certificate was issued (Malaysia)
Country of registration of the aircraft if different (Malaysia)
Country where the accident happened (?!)
Country where the airframe (body and wings) was manufactured (USA)
Country where the engines are manufactured (UK)

So if the data exists, yes, the FAA can demand to see it. Equally, so can the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch

"Goldie where is that Singapore flight bound ?"

I can't remember - I think it might have been Barcelona.

"Surely, they can tie up the available data, to see if that flight produced a continuous track or not ?"

I would have thought so.

Thanks Goldie; you are to this thread what Piglet John is to a plumbing thread

And what AF is the the Relationship board.

"And what AF is the the Relationship board"

Sorry, I don't understand...

Goldie

You sound like my late father, he planned a lot of these engines. When did they stop being Vickers and move to RR?

Sorry to derail, I miss his engineering chats.

Goldie

Some posters are particularly helpful and knowledgeable and known for this on certain topics, they are saying you are the word on this one.

AF is Any Fucker, doyenne of the relationships section.

"AF is Any Fucker, doyenne of the relationships section."

Oh - I didn't get that. I thought it was a question, as in what is the Relationships board?

"You sound like my late father, he planned a lot of these engines. When did they stop being Vickers and move to RR?"

Don't know - long before my time! Sorry!

not sure comparisons are appropriate here really - Goldy's information comes from actual knowledge of actual situations/scenarios/the industry etc. The advice (and I use the term loosely tbh) given on the relationships board is generally given out of personal opinion.

Surely it's possible that this plane will never be found? like planes that used too disappear in the Burmuda triangle - didn't they disappear without a trace?

"Surely it's possible that this plane will never be found?"

Well, it is possible, particularly if the cockpit crew were overcome with hypoxia but the aircraft flew on until it ran out of fuel. It could be anywhere with a 4000 mile radius of its last reported position (back of an envelope calculation). If it descended from 35000 to 29500 feet as has been suggested, you could knock maybe 1000 miles off of that figure.

"like planes that used too disappear in the Burmuda triangle - didn't they disappear without a trace?"

They did at the time but they've largely been found in more recent years with more modern technology. It's a long old time since an aeroplane was genuinely lost in teh Bermuda triangle (cue twighlight zone music )

It's just bizarre. Completely and utterly bizarre.

Achyfox - I used chrome today my friend was using ie worked fine although my sister said it kept crashing.
I think we covered hundreds of miles today we got addicted.

We got excited when we ship or an oil rig. Sorry maybe excited not the correct word but I am not sure what is under the circumstances.

I found 3 objects that didn't look like ships more like helicopters maybe but no blades all in a line north to south with about 2-3 squares in between them. It's a shame you can't zoom in.