Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

Next time we have a thread about a country which is intimidated and invaded by Putin, I'll post on that.

You may not think it is a problem that he is intent on recreating Greater Russia. I do. He is an enormous threat to European stability and democracy.

I only worry about problems that actually exist. Not opinions from editorials featuring mind-reading, 'selective' quotes, cod psychology and stereotyping.

If by 'threat to democracy' you mean pointing out that Russian speakers in Estonia and Latvia are denied civil rights out of sheer vindictiveness, and seeking to ensure that Ukrainian Russian-speakers and ethnic Russians do not suffer the same fate, then I think you need to reassess what you mean by 'democracy'.

Right now one of the only threats to national cohesion in Ukraine is the intemperate statements of the Kiev government, which is daily showing its amateurishness and inability to act reasonably and responsibly, in true revolutionary style. The other threat is the State Department, encouraging the rabid revolutionary zeal.

Maybe you would like to start an obsessive thread about US foreign policy.

I have a son who registered for the draft the day after he turned 18, so American foreign adventures matter to me. Plus all those tax dollars I pay put it in sharp focus. You can call that obsessive if you like.

Part of what I pay in taxes goes to pay for Victoria Nuland's nice fat salary and her pension plan too.

Ukraine is very much more a European issue. So is Putin's expansion of Russia's borders.

I am shocked that you affect to think that the intimidation, invasion and occupation of Russia's smaller and weaker neighbours is not a threat to Europe's stability and democracy.

And your attempt to suggest that Russia under Putin and Russia under Stalin are 6 of one and half a dozen of the others makes a mockery of the suffering under Stalin.

But at least you now recognise that Ukraine is a European issue and therefore the US has no business effecting regime change there, hand picking the Prime Minister, arranging how many times a week he will meet for briefings from other hand picked pols, sending the CIA chief to Kiev for a nosey around, or saddling the country with conditional loans that erase Ukrainian sovereignty.

"But at least you now recognise that Ukraine is a European issue"

don't be silly.

Farage is now recognised worldwide as a statesman. It's amazing what honesty and integrity in politicians can do.

'Save us Nigel Farage!' Leader of east Ukraine's pro-Moscow separatist movement issues bizarre plea for help to Ukip leader

...

'On behalf of the overwhelming majority of the people of Donetsk, we are asking for your support for a referendum on the independence of Donetsk Region.

'We believe that UKIP represents the spirit of the British people more than any other party, and are issuing a "Mayday" distress signal.

'The danger of our potential extermination by the Kiev "authorities" is hanging over us and anybody, who holds the same views, like a sword of Damocles.'

...

'Please stand up for us, like the statue of John Hughes in the centre of our city, a testament to our special relationship, which doesn't have to be a thing of the past. Let us all have a future.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605987/Save-Nigel-Farage-Leader-east-Ukraines-pro-Moscow-separatist-movement-issues-bizarre-plea-help-Ukip-leader.html

'Far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders blamed the crisis in Ukraine on the European Union on Thursday, accusing it of inciting violence by dangling the "carrot" of EU integration.'

...

"Europe is responsible for a lot of the mess here," Wilders said of Ukraine. "I would not have given them the carrot to give them the hope to wish for European membership. Everyone knows the country is divided," he told Reuters in an interview.

...

"European politicians ... went to speak to people in Kiev, half of whom were fascists standing there, and said: 'We will help you, we will support you,'" Wilders said. "That was almost hate speech. It didn't really help."

His comments echo those of France's most prominent rightist politician, National Front leader Marine Le Pen, who said during a recent visit to Moscow that the EU had declared a new Cold War on Russia.

Wilders, whose party is second in Dutch opinion polls, said the European Union had no business adopting a joint foreign policy towards its giant eastern neighbor and that EU sanctions against Russia would be ineffective.

"I believe the Russians should stay on their own territory: Ukraine is a sovereign country ... We should try to de-escalate," he said. "Make sure the Russian minority in eastern Ukraine is taken seriously without Russia interfering."

www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/us-eu-election-dutch-wilders-idUSBREA3G1CS20140417

The Right seems to be in the ascendant. What a Pandora's Box this has turned out to be.

We know that Russia has neo-nazis among its extremists.

I wonder if this also occurs among the pro-Russia armed gangs in Eastern Ukraine.

Pro-Russia and neo-Nazis too? I am getting the impression you do not like these people.

We all know Russia is run by the oligarchy. No, wait. I meant the US. 'Of 1779 policies enacted between 1983 and 2002 the vast majority were for the benefit of corporations, not the people'.

We all know why the US wants Russia out of the way, it's so their corrupt kleptocrats can get their hands on Ukraine. America cannot afford to apply sanctions to Russia, that runs the very real risk of Russia doing more deals with China. Those deals will not be done using the dollar, opening the way for other countries to do the same, most notably Saudi Arabia, who are exporting less oil to the US than ever, making this more likely. Indeed, 43 central banks hold 'significant amounts' in the Yuan even though it is not fully convertible, suggesting they know which way the wind is blowing.

It appears we need to change the old saying. Now we should tell our children "look east my child, it's the future".

Math, you are, I am sure, aware that Russia has more than its share of neo-nazis and extreme nationalists.

Ukraine has apparently banned men aged 16-60 travelling alone from entering the country.

Tell me about this word "apparently"

"The Direct Line with Putin is an annual event in Russia and this was his 12th.

But it was pointed out that in his previous five-hour long session last year, he had not mentioned annexing Crimea as one of his policies.

Mr Putin said it was never a plan. He was simply responding to the wishes of the people of Crimea, he claimed."

...

One of the questions came from a former member of the Berkut, the now disbanded Ukrainian special police force, who said he had confronted protesters in Kiev and some of his colleagues had been injured.

He called the deposed President Viktor Yanukovych a "slacker and a traitor" for not ordering tougher action.

Mr Putin defended his former ally, saying the two of them had discussed the dilemma and Mr Yanokovych had been unwilling to sign an order to open fire on his own citizens.

news.sky.com/story/1244427/putin-finds-time-for-a-laugh-during-phone-in

So who fired on the protestors? Is Yats holding an investigation? Has Yats got any evidence of orders?

Apparently: as far as one knows. HTH.

I can remove the apparently. Aeroflot was my only source previous to just doing a quick search, something PJ only seems able to do when it suits him.

Apparently if you had heard the story somewhere, you would be willing to share your source with us.

Apparently it is only on the Aeroflot website, but if true, will no doubt later be visible on the Ukraine Visa Requirements page. My Russian is no longer good enough to read the Aeroflot webpage.

Addressing the Ukrainian parliament on Friday, interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said an amnesty bill had been prepared for separatists who laid down their arms and left government buildings - and he urged them to do so.

"Russia was made to condemn extremism and to agree that all bandit groups should immediately lay down arms and vacate premises. So vacate. Your time is over. We are urging them to immediately observe what the Russian minister signed and to leave Ukraine alone," he said.

But later the Ukrainian interim authorities struck a more conciliatory tone. In a joint televised address, Mr Yatsenyuk and acting President Oleksander Turchynov appealed for national unity and promised to meet some of the demands of protesters in the east of the country.

You have to wonder what sort of complete eejit Yatseniuk is.
What sort of thought process goes on in the head of someone who seems to excel only at the 'open mouth, insert foot' method of conducting the business of politics? There is a lot at stake here and the best he can muster up is that directly quoted statement to parliament? He comes across as someone who has no political skills and no communication skills and no common sense whatsoever. A conciliatory tone late in the day is meaningless.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-more-stringent-border-checks-for-russians/2014/04/17/090e678c-c63f-11e3-b708-471bae3cb10c_story.html

The Washington Post confirms DoctorTwo's report.

Meanwhile, neo-Nazis are free to come and go from other European states?

you're right, the Washington Post also says that's what Aeroflot says

Ukraine’s Border Guard Service would not confirm the Aeroflot report but said in a statement there are “temporary restrictions” mainly concerning “able-bodied men” who cross the border alone or in small groups.

The restrictions will not affect the crews of airplanes, trains or buses that bring people into Ukraine, it said.

The clear implication is that everyone else on planes coming from Russia, as well as trains and buses besides their drivers and crew will be subject to restrictions. The Aeroflot statement is completely in accord with the Border Guard Service details.

So far it looks like the Donetsk self-defence forces are not prepared to pack up and go.

Putin will now be able to say that he wants them to go but he always told everyone that he had no influence over them. If the self-defence forces stay and if the people still demand a referendum, then Yats and the gang are between a rock and a hard place. If they use force, then the people of Donetsk will probably turn against them even more. If they don't use force, they will have to make concessions that they and their paymasters may not be willing to make. In the end, Yats may have to go to Putin and ask for his help to resolve things.

Has Putin snookered Yats yet again?