Russia has invaded Ukraine

[ohmymimi]

Not a shot fired. Putin outwits the West and who/what will stop him getting his way?

I said their families lay flowers on their graves. I am asking you if any of the puppets or oligarchs lay flowers on their graves?

You said no one other than their families - that is what I am arguing with. I have no idea about oligarchs......we don't mix in the same circles. But neither do you - how do you know they haven't?

I haven't seen them on TV news reports doing so. I have heard nothing at all about the funerals of police officers on TV, but I have seen politicians laying flowers for the Maidan protestors.

Yatsenyuk is supposed to be Prime Minister. I think he should be on TV showing respect for the police officers of Ukraine who died in the protests following orders and doing their jobs. I also think he should be arresting the people who killed them.

"So she also showed me some photos, she said that as medical doctor, she can say it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened ."

"So there is a stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych, it was somebody from the new coalition ," Paet says.

Ashton replies: "I think we do want to investigate. I didn't pick that up, that's interesting. Gosh ," Ashton says."

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

Gosh
Do you think Yatsenyuk, the newly appointed tough-talking Prime Minister, backed by oligarchs, will call an inquiry into it?

The reason I am concerned about it is because it might drag us into some sort of conflict with Russia and I believe in de-escalation, talks and legitimate governments and elections, not revolutions that overthrow elected Presidents without asking the opinion of the population.

Yatsenyuk, the former banker, appointed by oligarchs, tells Putin that this could mean war. If he wants to talk like that to Putin, I don't mind, as long as he doesn't expect us to help him. As long as the oligarchs are on the front line and our troops aren't, then I respect Yatsenyuk's decision.

What the heck do flowers have to do with anything? When you use or encourage mobs in the streets to oust a sitting president and thwart the will of the electorate was expressed at the last election, you can't expect things to run as smoothly as a cricket test.

Ukraine is ruled by oligarchs and has been since 'independence' from the USSR. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the future will be different, Euromaidan or no Euromaidan. The parties now set up as the 'government of Ukraine' take the calls of the rich whenever the phone rings, of that we can all be completely certain.

'What the heck do flowers have to do with anything? '

It's about respect. These politicians and puppets don't even respect their own police forces who were paid to do their jobs.

It won't be long before somebody sits Yatseniuk down and tells him to wind his neck in, and points out that he should be concentrating on not defaulting on the billions owed to Russia for gas and oil.

'Less than a fifth of Americans think that the US has any responsibility to protect Ukraine from a Russian invasion'

today.yougov.com/news/2014/03/03/ukraine-little-support/

I wonder what the billionaires have told tough-talking oligarch appointed former banker, Yatsenyuk. I wonder if they listen to the European and US public.

My guess is that Russia won't deal with him and that he will have to stand down before the Russians even talk to the other side.

Article from the World Socialist Web Site. According to this interpretation, Russia is weaker than it currently seems and the author thinks that the Russians will have to eventually back down.

Obviously, Yatchenyuk would not be talking so tough if he has not received support. But will that support last as the crisis continues?

"The extreme right-wing character of the US-backed Ukrainian regime was underscored yesterday by the announcement that the head of the fascist Right Sector organisation, Dmitro Yarosh, would stand in elections scheduled for May. Highlighting the prominent role played by Right Sector and the far-right Svoboda party in the putsch that ousted Russian-aligned President Viktor Yanukovych, a spokesman Andriy Tarasenko declared: “We remain the leaders of this revolution.”

Yarosh has called for the banning of Yanokovych’s Party of the Regions and the Communist Party of Ukraine. In the most recent elections, both parties received more votes than Svoboda. Tarasenko boasted that Right Sector, whose armed thugs were prominent in anti-Yanokovych protests in Kiev, was “mobilising” in preparation for war with Russia.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk, interim prime minister in the Kiev regime, yesterday flatly ruled out any compromise with Russia, denounced any move by Crimea to secede from Ukraine as “unlawful and unconstitutional” and the backers of a referendum as “separatists and traitors.” A court issued an arrest warrant for Sergei Aksyonov, the leader of the secessionist movement.

The Ukrainian administration yesterday failed to pay its latest bill for gas supplied by the Russian energy giant Gazprom, bringing the total outstanding debt to nearly $2 billion. The refusal to pay could escalate the crisis after Gazprom threatened to halt gas supplies, saying “we can’t supply gas for free.” Any cut-off would not only hit Ukraine, but also many European countries supplied by Gazprom via pipelines running through Ukraine.

Russia’s response to the aggressive US-led confrontation underlines the weakness of the Putin regime that represents the interests of corrupt Russian oligarchs. By whipping up Russian nationalism and chauvinism, Putin only heightens the danger of plunging Ukraine into an ethnic civil war that threatens to draw in all the major powers and plunge the world into a disaster.

Russia is seeking to consolidate its position in Crimea. Yesterday, after meeting with Crimean parliamentary delegates in Moscow, Valentina Matvienko, leader of the Russian parliament’s upper house, told a large rally of Russian nationalists in Moscow that Crimea would be welcome as part of the Russian Federation if it votes in the referendum to do so.

The Crimean Peninsula is the key strategic base for the Russian navy to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean. The Russian navy has scuttled two aging warships at the entrance to Lake Donuzlav, effectively preventing several Ukrainian naval vessels from leaving their home base. A confrontation at a Ukrainian military base outside Sevastopol, during which Russian-backed forces attempted to take-over the facility, has reportedly ended without incident.

The chief responsibility for this highly flammable situation lies with the Obama administration and its allies, which are determined to inflict a humiliating and debilitating back down on the Russian government, no matter what the cost and dangers involved."

www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/08/ukra-m08.html?view=article_mobile

The Ukrainian administration yesterday failed to pay its latest bill for gas supplied by the Russian energy giant Gazprom, bringing the total outstanding debt to nearly $2 billion. The refusal to pay could escalate the crisis after Gazprom threatened to halt gas supplies, saying “we can’t supply gas for free.” Any cut-off would not only hit Ukraine, but also many European countries supplied by Gazprom via pipelines running through Ukraine.

So yes, Yatseniuk will be asked to wind his neck in about treason, etc,, and his right wing friends can do all the posturing they want because they may actually need fires in the streets to keep warm. If it turns out there are more of them than the US or EU care to admit and if their influence is strong enough to make a difference in the situation in Crimea, Putin is going to look like a choirboy, and the west is going to have egg all over its face after all the howling about democracy and denial and downplaying of right wing involvement thus far in events.

The chief responsibility for this highly flammable situation lies with the Obama administration and its allies, which are determined to inflict a humiliating and debilitating back down on the Russian government, no matter what the cost and dangers involved."

No, Claig.

The chief responsibility for this highly flammable situation lies with the country which instigated a military invasion of its neighbour.

I think if we scratch hard enough we will find that the US administration actively encouraged regime change in Ukraine.

The leaked (intercepted) phone call between Victoria Nuland of the State Department and US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt revealed that Yatseniuk was the US' preferred successor to Yanukovich, that the US thought Klitschko was a political lightweight, and that Tiahnybok (of Svoboda) could be linked to Yanukovich and discarded when the dust settled. The same conversation revealed US impatience at the EU's hesitation wrt Ukraine - the US wanted the EU to be far more aggressive. (Hence 'Fuck the EU')

Here it is:
Victoria Nuland (V.N.): What do you think?

Geoffrey R. Pyatt (G.P.): I think we are in play. The Klitchko piece is obviously the most complicated electron here, especially the announcement of him as Deputy Prime Minister. You have seen my notes on trouble in the marriage right now, so we are trying to get a read really fast where he is on the staff. But I think your argument to him which you’ll need to make, I think that’s the next phone call that you want to set up is exactly the one you made to Yats (Yatsenuk’s nickname). I’m glad you put him on the spot. He fits in this scenario. And I am very glad he said what he said.

V.N.: Good. I don’t think Klitsch (Klitschko’s nickname) should be in the government. I don’t think it’s necessary, I don’t think it’s a good idea.

G.P.: Yeah, I mean, I guess… In terms of him not going into the government… I’d just let him stay out and do his political homework. I’m just thinking, in terms of sort of the process moving ahead, we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is gonna be with Tyahnibok and his guys. And, you know, I am sure that is part of what Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

V.N.: I think Yats is the guy. He has economic experience and governing experience. He is the guy. You know, what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnibok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week. You know, I just think if Klitchko gets in, he’s going to be at that level working for Yatsenuk, it’s just not gonna work…

G.P.: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s right. Ok, good. Would you like us to set up a call with him as the next step?

V.N.: My understading from that call that you tell me was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was gonna offer in this context, you know, a «three plus one» conversation or a «three plus two» conversation with you. Is that not how you understood it?

G.P.: No. I think that was what he proposed but I think that knowing the dynamic that’s been with them where Klitchko has been the top dog, he’ll show up for whatever meetings they’ve got and he’s probably talking to his guys at this point. So, I think you reaching out directly to him, helps with the personality management among the three. And it also gives you a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it, before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn’t like it.

V.N.: Ok. Good. I am happy. Why don’t you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.

G.P.: Ok, I will do it. Thanks.

Nuland-YouTube V.N.: I can’t remember if I told you this or if I only told Washington this: when I talked to Jeff Feltman this morning he had a new name for the UN guy – Robert Serry. I wrote you about it this morning.

G.P.: Yeah, I saw that.

V.N.: Ok. He’s gotten now both Serry and Ban ki-Moon to agree that Serry will come on Monday or Tuesday. That would be great I think to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, if you like, fuck the EU.

G.P.: No, exactly. And I think we’ve got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I am still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych that. In the meantime there is a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I am sure there is a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway, we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep… I think we just want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. The other issue is some kind of outreach to Yanukovych but we probably regroup on that tomorrow as we see how things start to fall into place.

V.N.: So on that piece, Jeff, when I wrote the note Sullivan’s come back to me V.F.R., saying you need Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an atta boy and to get the details to stick. So, Biden’s willing.

G.P.: Ok. Great, thanks.

'No, Claig.

The chief responsibility for this highly flammable situation lies with the country which instigated a military invasion of its neighbour.'

exactly right, PJ. Why the heck is Russia bringing yet more troops in EVERY day while Ukraine has small units that are held under supervision and aer outmunbered hugely (huge russian Navy all there too)?? The Russians aer inflaming not just the Ukrainians but also the west who are all against this.

math, the people couldnt wait to get rid of Yanukovich (apart from far eastern parts like Donetsk and not all of Donetsk either), it was NOT the decision of the right wing, You obviously have no knowledge of just how fed up everyone in Ukraine (apart from thieving oligarchs) with the succesion of post -soviets puuppets of Putin and his predecessors. Oligarchs of Ukraine became possible ONLY thanks to Russia supporting them for their own economic/political benefit.

Poor Gazprom, ha! Do you really think that russia was being some poor fool suppliying Ukraine with cheaper gas? Of course not - they shared in ukrainian stolen stuff via their 'colleagues' who they made sure are in power in Ukraine. Yanukovich was always a Putin-approved guy. Noone un-approved could have dreamt to be in Ukrainian govt. It's hteir dirty kitchen who owes whom and fpr what as far as economic exchanges and trade.

how is it fair to ask Yatsenyuk or anyone new, to be responsible for the debts created by previous stealing government? If Russia can legally insist on it, then perhaps US money (that they promise to Ukraine) could help.
But really what Russia can do is write off the debt but stop the discounts of course.
Or see Crimea in lieu of the debt if the referendum proves pro-russian (if conducted honestly). Ukraine can not afford paying the huge debt that a few persons at the top created in the first place. How about asking Yanukovich to pay something from his many private accounts abroad?

..of course, with full knowlegde of Russia that the debt will be created by the few people at the top of Ukrainian govt, and not minding - as in their eyes the debt made it even more possible to control Ukraine. This has been the usual Soviet central-power-system way of doing things. Bribe everyone at the top in neighbouring small countries. Choose to supprt those leaders who are bribeable.

Looking at Beagle's and Piglet's arguments, I can't but realise how Ukraine is totally not ready to be anywhere near the EU.

The arguments being advanced are about defaulting on contracts and financial obligations under the expectation that big daddy Sam will provide cover... They expect US and EU to pay their bills... Am I the only one who finds that shocking?

Defending racist and fascist leanings and apologizing for Nazi collaboration... The attitudes of people in Ukraine are clearly about one group trumpeting over dignity and livelihoods of another under cover from a powerful patron.

This is not democracy.

You are not ready for democracy guys. You are every bit fascist and totalitarian. If I could I would vote against countries like that joining EU. This dilutes our own democracy.We should all vote for our government to stop that.

'Oligarchs of Ukraine became possible ONLY thanks to Russia supporting them for their own economic/political benefit.'

The oligarchs are backing the new government and some have been appointed to roles in the industrial East.

www.businessinsider.com.au/ukraine-recruiting-its-oligarchs-to-prevent-pro-russia-east-from-seceding-2014-3

"In Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis

The story we're told about the protests gripping Kiev bears only the sketchiest relationship with reality"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

There is an interview online with a former German politician who says that the plan is to divide Europe and prevent EU/Russian cooperation. He says it is strange that there is no inquiry by the Council of Europe or the OSCE into the shooting of 80 or 90 odd people in Maidan, and that these bodies have not called for an inquiry into it.

We are in 2014 and the First World War was in 1914. Sometimes, planners like their dates.

There are theories that if Putin does come out on top, then it will be a return to a multipolar world instead of a unipolar world.

There are other theories that Putin is playing chess and may cause the crash of the dollar and the US financial system and that Russia and China may dump the dollar at some later stage.

There was the strange attack in China last week.

'how is it fair to ask Yatsenyuk or anyone new, to be responsible for the debts created by previous stealing government?'

Whoever is in charge of any government is responsible for that country's debts. Ukraine is not short of billionaires, many of them have been appointed as governors to regions. Russia has been offering them cut-price gas for years. It's not going to write off its debt, so Ukraine will have to use EU or IMF money to pay or sell some of its assets.

Yanukovych was not Putin's man. He only chose the Russian deal in the end because it was far better and did not open up Ukraine's out-of-date industries to free market EU competition which would have destroyed Ukraine's industrial base and because the EU offered only $800 million while Russia offered $15 billion and cut-price gas.

The Orange Revolution's government were the West's favoured choice and not Putin's and Yanukovych only won the election in 2010 because Ukrainians were fed up of those crooks.

'as in their eyes the debt made it even more possible to control Ukraine'

Russia has not controlled Ukraine. That is why it hasn't had its gas bills paid and why Ukraine owes it over $1 billion for that and why Putin could not prevent a band of organised neo-nazis and Afghansi toppling an elected President who had just turned down an unfavourable economic deal with the EU.

It is funny how everybody reacts when Russia does something, while USA roams the world, goes in and out of any country they put the fingers on, kills their presidents, overturns their governments, shots their citizens, nobody says a thing. This world sucks.

' They expect US and EU to pay their bills... Am I the only one who finds that shocking?'

'If I could I would vote against countries like that joining EU. This dilutes our own democracy.We should all vote for our government to stop that.'

You are absolutely right. But you have to remember that our established parties are all in it together. They won't listen to your vote.

But in the May Euro elections, European people will vote against them, against the oligarchs and the tools of bankers because they can read the tea leaves and see where this is all heading.

"UKIP MEP William Dartmouth has warned that the government's current approach to the crisis in Ukraine risks making the situation in the region even worse.

He said: "Ministers must take the greatest care to ensure that they do not give western Ukraine false hope just as the West gave anti-Assad activists in Syria false hope in the early days of the rebellion there.

"If popular uprisings are based on a false premise of expected Western intervention when none is on the cards then all that happens is that dangerous instability escalates with no good end in sight.

"The Government must be very careful not to get Britain drawn into a conflict that could easily escalate from a regional crisis to a global one.

"Neither is there any desire among the British people to get dragged into yet another far-flung conflict, whether that be directly or through any EU co-ordinated action. And let us remember that the EU's High Representative Baroness Ashton has never been elected and has zero political legitimacy in the eyes of the British public."

www.ukip.org/newsroom/news/1201-ukip-mep-warns-the-government-not-to-get-dragged-into-conflict-in-ukraine

The people cannot just instigate a revolution no matter how much they regret electing Yanukovich and no matter how much they feel he represents only the east, and no matter how long they have to wait until the next election. If they want democracy then they need to abide by the rules that make democracy work.

And sorry, if you use the heating gas or the oil then you owe the party that supplied it. To suggest that this government isn't responsible for the debt is pure baloney. It will be interesting to see if Russia agrees to sell any more to Ukraine. How will it feel to have to go cap in hand to Saudi Arabia and pay the going rate there?

Oligarchs of Ukraine became possible ONLY thanks to Russia supporting them for their own economic/political benefit.
This is baloney too. Russia does business all over the world. Those directly engaged in business with Russia do not necessarily grow wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. A country where there is little or no rule of law is one where individuals amass vast wealth while the majority remain poor. Over twenty years of power swinging east and west in Ukraine (and clearly not all governments were puppets of Putin either) the 'winner takes all' game of Ukrainian politics has resulted in the current fractured state, each side staring the other down, the national debt growing, cute hoor politicians trying to flirt with Russia on the one hand and the EU on the other, with oligarchs and politicians alike laughing all the way to the Cayman Islands and Cyprus and London. Yatseniuk is most unusual for his notable lack of personal wealth.

how is it fair to ask Yatsenyuk or anyone new, to be responsible for the debts created by previous stealing government? If Russia can legally insist on it, then perhaps US money (that they promise to Ukraine) could help.
My DCs are US taxpayers and future US taxpayers, and so am I. So that is actually my money and theirs that you are so blithely talking about. How is it fair to ask my family to help Ukraine renege on its obligations?
HopefulGoat, I agree -- Ukraine is not ready for democracy and is not ready to join the EU, and I suspect Germany and France and Britain believe that too.

People in Ireland were fed up to the back teeth of Fianna Fail in the aftermath of the bank scandal and the collapse of the Irish economy. Everyone knew how cozy a relationship the politicians in government had with the bankers. They saw planning permission sold left, right and centre for housing estates that would never be occupied, and saw crooked deals that literally gave away oil prospecting rights off the west of Ireland with local pols raking in kickbacks. Brazen and open corruption was the order of the day. The Irish waited until the election to change the government.

*Cute hoor is an Irish phrase meaning greedy scum involved in politics. Hoor is a corruption of whore.