Supernanny gets a kicking in the Guardian today....

[harpsichordcarrier]

blimey, this interview makes her sound so v thick

MI - did you see that article about the woman who applied zoo-keepers' techniques to her husband? dh was incensed. I had to do a rapid backtrack from my faintly amused conversation opener on that one.

Cor. You'd be one brave zoo-keeper to brave the Inferiority Complex in the mornings before I've had my breakfast. Possibly a lion tamer might manage it unscathed.

Most adults already are having behaviourist techniques used on them, MI. Ever had performance-related pay? Other incentive schemes at work? They all decrease creativity and intrinsic motivation, in just the same way star charts do with children.

MI, I agree that it is generally not society that would take the lead in fitting around children. The issue is whether society (or the workforce) is structured in such a way as to make it easy or difficult for parents (for it is their primary responsibility, not "society's") to meet the needs, particularly emotional, of their children. In raging capitalist societies, like US and to a lesser extent, UK and Australia, I would argue no. In more child friendly countries like the Scandanavian countries, it is better.

I think whether a particular concept has been around for a long time or not is a bit of a red herring. And certainly past practices or expediencies should not be used to justify the current situation. It is a question of which objective value we wish to support, otherwise you could use the past the justify just about anything.

my son loves his star chart and has done quite well with it!

And could you imagine if my dh sent me to another room for half an hour to cool off before he will talk to me?

Or if he promised to take me on holiday if I cleaned the bathroom everyday for a month? Would I bother to clean the bathroom if there was no reward in the offing? Or would it be better if I learnt to recognise that a clean bathroom is intrinsically good in itself (because as a child I saw mummy and daddy taking turns to clean it and when I was older, helped to clean it myself with support and praise from parents).

"Blueshoes, I'm cancelling your hairdresser's appointment because I'm afraid my shirts were not properly ironed this week. You can earn it back, if you are very good and manage to be kind to my mother every day. Otherwise I'm afraid you will not be able to go out with your friends next week."

Does that motivate you? No???

back tracking a bit here but I used to ask my son when he was younger to say sorry or give a kiss or cudle because I felt if I asked for a sorry and then I wanted it the right tone of voice ,well if he wasnt going to do that (as any child of that age might not ) where was I to go from there . I thought if I gave him a small choice we would all come out of the situation alot better than us having a standoff over the word sorry .

Franny, .

It just illustrates the point that any punishment/reward- based system is arbitrary and ultimately demeaning. It only teaches human beings to dance to the tune of a higher authority, not to value an activity or behaviour as intrinsically good or worthwhile. Nor teach self-motivation or discipline. What happens when children are old enough to be on their own and the external pressure or incentives imposed by their parents is removed?

I don't think there is a distinction between children and adults. Children may not be able to verbalise their confusion but they do pick up the underlying messages that we give out as parents pretty quickly.

Aviatrix, agree with your do-unto-others stance.

And good point about spacing out children. Though I do appreciate it is controversial and not always possible (accidents!). Dh and I consciously chose to have a bigger gap to lessen the strain on ourselves as parents and hopefully be able to give No.2 more attention.

Thing is, we are intellectualising this discussion, which is not in itself a bad thing. However, when, despite your best intentions & treating your child as a human being & not a dog, your child has wild uncontrollable tantrums at the slightest opportunity, roars at you, lashes out, throws rocks around the garden, won't come anywhere near a table - you have to ask yourself what the hell you are doing wrong?
It is all very well talking about learning the intrinsic values of right & wrong, but I'm not always sure 4 year olds get that stuff - sometimes they need really simple concepts, like a tragic sticker chart, to get them on the way.
Of course children are people, but they are not aware of danger, can't control their emotions & can't express themselves like grown up people. I wouldn't say to another adult "If you don't put your shoes on to go to work, then you'll have to go without them", because I'm hoping that the adult would understand that shoes are useful & protect your feet from bits of glass, dog poo etc etc. A big old chat about that kind of stuff doesn't always work at 8.50am when your child is roaring like a wounded animal on the floor.

Yes. Even bellowing back like a rabid walrus doesn't always work, I find. And yes, I know I am subjecting my children to a life which I am impinging on them, but hey, 200 years ago they'd have had to go and work in the fields, dammit.

And 100 years ago they'd have been up a chimney. So life in the inferiority complex, even at its grimmest, is a rest cure, really.

Not pulling your chain Greeny but I bet you were a socialist worker at University

Just wanted to add in reference to the 'unasseptible' and 'no fightin' etc point being picked up on....this woman is on prime time TELEVISION!! She flipping well ought to be told she speaks horribly and sorted out.

Axotol - or whatever your name is. You are bloody hideous. So fucking what.

Go on report my post.

I absolutely loathe, hate and detest such attitudes.

Ummm - having got that off my chest so to speak, the first paragraph was a direct quote from...what was her name again?

i think that her use of inapporiate language is becasue she is trying her hardest not to sound silly. in fact all she is doing is showing up the fact she has had no advanced formal education.
it is sad that she feels the need to try and 'dress up' what she is saying.

Avolotl - i do think it unfair to point out her poorly pronounced vocabulary. would you do the same to someone with a lisp or stammer?

as for her techniques i do feel she is very much conflict control rather than behaviour modification. I agree with (i think it was) frany when she states that her methids are very similar ot puppy training.
she doesn't seem to look into the roots of the bad behaviour, though in the odd shows i have seen it appears that a distinct lack of discipline in any form is the main cause.
in such cases i think that any parent could help that situation by simply installing a routine and a sense of authority to the house.

Absolutely fattiemumma - not having received sufficient formal education should not make the subject an object of derision - pah! (still spitting about this)

decca comes across as a cunt imo and a bully. sneering at the bad use of english and pointing out more than once that there is no fomral qualifications. attacking the person and not the technique ( sound a familier argument eh GF?)

i dont often watch the programme but when i do i too a m appaulled by the way these parents have let their children do and say the things they do and say - i think it is common sense and the only thing i am appaulled at is that we need someone to tell us on television that kids aged 4 need to go to sleep in bed not on the setee. that if you give them a drink at bedtime they are going to want a wee in the night and wake up. that if you give them chocolate they are going to go a little hyperfrom the sugar rush.

i mean its not riocket science - and supernanny never said it was .

some of the parents are indeed disgusting - thinking that by allowing their children to do whatever they want that they are being a good parent . children need to hear the word no. and i for one am sick of this soft shit all the time.the child says sorry becuase that is what one does when one has dome wrong. this is something a child needs to learn especially if thick as fuck parents never taught it before. and by sincerity she actually means for the child to understand that tome of voice is important. not to shout SOOOOOORRRYYY!" - becuase if i have learned anything its that you have to be specific with children becuase they will find the loop hole.. i would like to say i m shocked that the guardian prints such shite. but alas these days i am not.

that is a nasty piece of journalism.
No wonder people mistrust journalists.

I agree with axoltyl and fattiemumma. To me it seems the crux of Decca's approach is to determine whether or not the figurehead of the Supernanny brand is au fait with the way that brand is representing itself; entertainment or education.
She asks good questions and begins to suggest that the mighty brand machinery of ricochet et al may not be communicating its truest intentions to Jo Frost who is the ideal foil as her intellect is focussed elsewhere, shall we say.

Message withdrawn

I half agree custardo - I think Decca does actually raise some interesting qs about method (eg the point about sincerity in apologies, the behaviourist approach - they're at least worthy of discussion) but what she actual does with them is use them to sneer and be snobby about Jo Frost. What she easily could have done is raise those qs, show Jo Frost to be what I think she probably is - someone who is naturally good with kids and uses common sense rather than something she read in a book to deal with them, and hi-light the shortfalls ofthe programme makers, rather than JF. good use of the c word btw.