Supernanny gets a kicking in the Guardian today....

[harpsichordcarrier]

blimey, this interview makes her sound so v thick

[Greensleeves]

Great post aviatrix.

[NotQuiteCockney]

It was a hatchet job. That being said:

a) They didn't pick on her "mispronounciations". (I don't think she mispronounces anything, I suspect "unasseptable" is normal pronounciation in some dialects, surely?). They picked on her misuse of overlong words. As fattiemama says.

b) Children used to not be children, they were just small adults. Before reading and writing were normal qualifications for everyday life, children were treated much more like adults, once they could speak well. They had a lot more autonomy than current-day children.

[harpsichordcarrier]

I agree with suzywong
I think the supernanny cult is also a nasty side effect of our current fetish for professionalising parenting - rather than treating it like a relationship that needs work and develops and unfolds in a complex way, we look at children as problems to be solved, if only we can buy the right book by the right expert.
it's simplistic and it's crap and it undermines the real, complex nature of parenting as practised by parents. it's also at the root of the pressure for younger and younger children to be left in full time day care because it is good for their development to be left with people wh are qualified and are following a curriculum, rather than unqualified parents who can't be trusted to follow milestones and reach targets and will probably just fanny around all day.
and I don't think Decca is being unthinkingingly snobbish about JF's lack of education. It is legitimate, though, I think to point out the JF hasn't even considered the issues about privacy/exploitation for example, let alone attempted to understand them.

[NotQuiteCockney]

It was depressing, how much she hadn't even considered the privacy/exploitation issue wrt the kids.

I do think the trend towards Supernanny etc is part of a cultural shift away from APish parenting. Maybe because APish parenting is harder work for the parents?

I don't think parents want to think of parenting as a relationship, they (we) don't want to think about how much we are participating in bad behaviour. Children are rude and difficult often because their parents are rude and difficult. I certainly am forever hearing DS1 ape my worst behaviours. It is horrible having a 4-year-old be sarcastic at you. I suspect it's worse having your mom be sarcastic at you .

[Greensleeves]

NQC that's so true. I have had to face up to some unattractive habits I didn't even know I had, because of my 3yo mirroring them at me, usually in public

Which only goes to reinforce the fact that "parenting" isn't something you can learn from a manual, or a set of step-by-step instructions, it is a human relationship between unique personalities, an organic natural process, which should be left a-bloody-lone by the meedja and the likes of Jo effing Frost. IM(nv)HO.

[NotQuiteCockney]

Hmm, I'm not sure the media isn't a good place to discuss this stuff ... but I'm assuming that a media "discussion" could be a bit more open, a bit more like Mumsnet.

I just think having alternative opinions and approaches can do a world of good. Of course, this isn't what Supernanny etc are providing at the moment.

[harpsichordcarrier]

exactly NQC. I think AP style parenting is A. hard work and B. disrupts our lifestyles much more fundamentally ("Get your life back!" etc) and C. makes it harder to return to the workforce quickly to carry on being an economically valid, tax paying and spending member of society.
I think the GF thing is a similar thrust actyally - get your baby sleeping when you want her too, so you can "get back to normal."
my parents would have been astonished at the notion that it was desirable to "get back to normal" after having a baby.
In fairness to JF, she does aim to adjust the parents' bahaviours, and get them to understand that modelling good behaviour is the most powerful method of behaviour adjustment, and gets parents to understand their responsibility for their children's development (albeit tht this is not the focus of her programmes, as it doesn't fit quite so neatly into an hour's programme).

[NotQuiteCockney]

HC, I also think AP requires parents to deal with their memories of being a child, and rethink things a bit. Well, at least if your parents weren't AP parents, it does. (And oh boy were my parents not AP!)

[NotQuiteCockney]

And yeah, the economic thing comes into it. And the fact that parents today have got used to having their own lives, and their own time, and suddenly having to shift everything is hard.

[blueshoes]

AP is also difficult to stomach for some parents because of their genuine fear of losing control, of being dictated to/manipulated by a child ... a child !

Hence the preference for high-handed tactics like naughty step, even star charts because it keeps them in the driving seat. Instead of having to talk to the child, getting to the root of the child's unhappiness, working on improving the relationship and making lifestyle changes.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Axolotl]

Fattiemumma
Sorry, just have to dip in here and say I disagree that her horrible diction is a speech impediment. It's not at all the same as a stammer, c'mon!!!!
It's TELEVISION!!! We're not talking about being mean about someone next door.....she is getting paid bucketloads of money and we pay a licence fee!!

[Axolotl]

Oh blimey - I just saw Handlemecarefully's post. Wow. You don't mess about, do you?
Is it the heat?

Never having had a ruck on here before, I'm off now. Bye.

[Greensleeves]

I've just seen HMC's witty little jab in my direction too

No, I wasn't a Socialist Worker at uni. A right bunch of adolescent attention-seeking political eunuchs they were IMO.

I did turn up to one of their "demos" and chick egs at Michael Howard though - got him right in the back with one . Then I scarpered when the police vans turned up, while the Socialist Worker contingent were falling over one another trying to get arrested.

Your point being?

[Greensleeves]

chuck eggs, not chick egs.

[poisson]

you coudl chuck chick eggs tho

[Axolotl]

And anyway, it's completely unasseptible to be swearin' at me like that.
(I'm gone, honest)

[noddyholder]

I don't think it was a nasty piece of journalism I just think she verbalised what a lot of people think It is really a sad state of affairs when we need someone like her to advise us on our children.

[Bugsy2]

Big sigh, but even when you know the root cause of a just turned 4 year old's unhappiness (his father has buggered off), it doesn't mean that talking to said 4 year old will improve the situation.
A four year old does not understand & cannot express themselves like adults do. My four year old expressed himself physically & his behaviour was beyond control. Hence I ended up sitting in front of a child pyschologist. For my over anxious DS, rules & routines were needed so that he felt safe & reassured by a constant environment. I don't particularly like sticker charts, but I used them along with time out & all sorts of other behaviour controlling techniques.
I don't use nearly any of these now, but I needed to at the time to break the cycle. I am amazed at how so many of you don't seem to get that this is often necessary when faced with a really out of control child. These are usually the sort of children that Jo Frost is dealing with. Yes, of course it is the parents' fault that the children end up that way, but sometimes it creeps up on them or something extra-ordinary happens & then they don't have the necessary skills to resolve the situation alone.
Once again, I'll add that Jo Frost doesn't just use behaviour control, she tries to improve the life of the whole family. Cooking good food, family meals together, tv switched off & out of children's bedrooms, days out together - for lots of families these ARE major life style changes!!

[handlemecarefully]

Yes I did rather go for the jugular axolotl - but you were being horrendously snobbish which is one of my parp issues. I'm sure you've got some redeeming features however.....

Greensleeves, as is frequently the case, I didn't really have a point

[Greensleeves]

"Greensleeves, as is frequently the case, I didn't really have a point "

Er.......shut up, then?!?

[ruty]

i liked the article. First time anyone's questioned the woman's credibility, as far as i know. Admiring of Axolotl's gracious behaviour in face of insults, I must say, i must learn from that!