Italian adoption case III

[Juliet123456]

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

Which is weird, because that must mean he isn't completely delusional - in other words he knows when he is about to slip up and give an answer that contradicts what he said earlier or which confirms that he believes in something really unsavoury, such as the bulk of IJ's advice.

So surely on some level he must know what he is doing?

Anyway, I think I have spent long enough dissecting this man and his motives.

Hopefully, with the popularity of Twitter more people can be exposed more quickly to his unreliability as Simon Myerson QC says.

I was heartened by the Daily Mail comments once the Italian grandfather had given his interview - they seemed much more balanced.

Until the next time.

If the SW was so convinced she was right that the child should go home, why was she so scared of an assessment?

Oh and John, I have spoken to you as a constituent a few times on these threads and I don't get an answer. Do you really care more about your agenda than your constituents?

I meant because of all the legal ramifications one way or the other. Mumsnet dont like comebacks[I am on your side Spero and other btw].

Sorry I was terse in my reply.

But this does make me angry. A fear of speaking out because someone with deep pockets might sue?

I would welcome JH bringing an action against me for defamation. These proceedings would be in open court and it would be a chance to shine light on his activities.

Lilka

Oh yes, I invented the illness endured by a woman so unwell she wouldn't and couldn't use sanitary protection. To compound this she was also averse to putting on clothing so we spent a week struggling to maintain her privacy and dignity. The unit resembled a slaughterhouse and if that offends anybodies delicate sensibilities, it is meant to.

Oh yes. I invented that I did.

I also invented the illness that took so many clients before their time. The ones that threw themselves under trains, off motorway bridges and multistorey car parks.

Oh yes. I invented them too. They were well.

I have spent nearly three decades labelling well people for my personal pleasure, forcing them to endure depot injections and my ministrations.

Oh yes, that I did.

IJ and JH you are sexual abuse apologists and have no knowledge of what serious and enduring MI is like to live with and treat. How can they understand fluctuations in insight/crisis of insight when they have none of their own?

Go lobby pharmaceutical companies for efficacious medications and NICE for better, more tailored therapies as opposed to one size fits all CBT. Do good that way.

Lilka I meant that in agreement with your post- I wasn't directing it at you if it appeared that way.

@NanaNina

"Another Question: Do you think we are all of such limited intelligence that we can't see through your desperate attempts to support your conspiracy theory................do you.............honestly???????"

They actually think we are all of such limited intelligence. And not just him, also Joseph, Booker and Reid.

Let's be honest... how many people they actually fooled worldwide with their childsnatched conspiracy this time? Many people didn't have time to deconstruct their theories making proper research and they bought the whole social-services-are-evil thing.

They are all lucky NanaNina.. because if any of us had any political power (as someone accused us of), these people would have been sued already for attempting to spread silly conspiracies all over the planet (well I found an article in Australia reporting the DM one!).

@Spero

"I was heartened by the Daily Mail comments once the Italian grandfather had given his interview - they seemed much more balanced."

I was very surprised to find out that papers or online blogs that hadn't published a shred of the first article (maybe because it smelled 'fishy'?) actually reported the father's one....

And, I might seem soppy here... but someone of that age putting himself in front of the public eye (he has a public activity in that Tuscan village.. Can you imagine his peers' reactions?) to defend the decision of the courts of another country.. woah, this man is my hero. End of.

I agree that the comments under the story (since many of the orginal "facts" have either been corrected and a great deal of wholly ommited facts have come to light) are more balance. But the issue with any emotive story initially being ridden with omissions, half truths and outright falsehoods is that quite a lot of people don't keep up. Either from being hard of reading, prone to prejudice or being out of the loop.

Under the story of the grandfather of the child there are several pro Hemming et al posts littered with miscomprehension regarding the now known facts of the case including this gem written just yesterday.

I understand that her mother helps with the care of her other children to ensure they are safe

Which bears little resmeblence to the confirmed reality of Italian SS taking the extrodinary step (in an Italian landscape) of having removed the two older children from their mother's care, placing them in the care of their grandmother with limits set on the mother's contact with her children.

In order to put right details that were very clearly wrong in the first instance the people who presented the initial story as "troof!" need to be the ones holding up their hands and underling the corrections.

Mr Hemming, when I made a factual error about you the second I realised I had stuffed up, without prompting, needing badgering or a moment of hesitation ....I apologised and corrected my error in the same place my error exisited. And that is in the context of one quote being wrongly attributed on a talk board. You were never at risk of a factual error being attached to you forever more on a national and international level. All the same I felt that where I fucked up I should de-fuck up.

When you realised that there were so many factual errors, half truths and omissions in the orginal story why were you unwilling or unable to do the same sort of "putting right what I got wrong, where I got it wrong, mea culpa" act of personal responsibility accepted and exercised ?

I find your words and deeds (and your words and deeds not forthcoming when the facts of the story were clarified) problematic in a man entrusted with authority and power over so many.

But even more problematic for me, is that

a) the Lib Dem party specifically
b) the political class in general

...do not have the slightest issue with what you do and say, nor what you don't do and say when you fuck up and help spread flagrant misinformation.

The only conclusion possible at the point is that you and they are of the same ilk, they just have a better cloaking device than you do.

Perhaps the only solution for the people at the sharp end of the political class is an insistance that ballot papers come with a "I'd rather be represented by a senile hamster than any of this bunch" box until the message sinks in.

while I agree the grandfather is a hero, is it not wholly typical of the DM to base the new slant on the story on his testimony rather than the facts?
Even though the facts have been available for several days now.

Brilliant post. Particularly what you say about the Lib Dems.

There appears to be no means or even the will to examine someone's unfitness for office when they behave in the way JH has, for years now.

Really disappointing.

@MadameDefarge You are right but people reading the DM won't ever research the topic to see what was wrong with the first article....

And on the Italian scene, it is an exception to see parents speaking out against their children in any case. Some parents even prefer to accuse themselves of murder to defend their children.

It seemed to me that both the baby's grandparents (although the grandmother was included but she is not the one interviewed) went through difficult years because of this daughter and they are now pretty tired.
For sure, Italian court asked for their support in the case (baby's mother is unemployed and father is illegal and unemployed)... Who will care for the baby once she is back to Italy if not the grandparents? And it seems to me they publicly said NO.

And of course, the grandparents themselves are divorced, so grandmother is effectively bringing up the two elder girls by herself.

Some parents even prefer to accuse themselves of murder to defend their children

Off topic, but the most recent case of that kind gets to me every time it circles back onto the telly. He doesn't even seem to truely understand how teansparent he is, and she seems so coldly willing to hurl her father under the bus and stamp on his head for good measure to save her own skin.

Sabrina?

how much direct expereince of mental health does jh or any of those have?
they werent there when the italian woman was sectioned - not do they seem to have any uderstanding at all of what a psychotic/severe mh episode looks like. they seem to be in denial for sure. all they need tod o is watch the bbc programmes...www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b3s86/features/programmes

the DM is now veering towards it's usual "single mother of three with poor mental health three diff fathers deserves not to have her own children; even her own father says so" angle. which is equally sad.

but then DM is often contradictory even in one issue with often having one story on page 5 saying/promoting one thing and page 10 saying the opposite...

It might be Sabrina, the name "Sarah" (the victim) is the one I remember more cos ... that's my name. And the H is rare over here.

There were some very disturbing videos on La Vita in diretta (I think) of the cousin's dad ineffectually trying to take responisbility for the murder.

Aye, that's her. Sabrina is in jail with her mother, while Michele continues to say it was him guv.

@Drank yes, it is her. Sad and evil story. I still can't get my head around it :( too much to take in.

@cestlavielife
The funny part is that JH supporters commented all over the place using the pathetic argument 'they should have sent the mother back to Italy straightaway', this ignoring the fact they were actually breaking their human rights that way, not the other way around...
Because if you feel sick or you have an accident, for any reason, in another country and the authorities decide to ship those people back to their original countries uncaring of the fact they are well or not, you commit an offence and you break their human rights because you declined to take care of them. But this version of the facts is no use to JH propaganda. Therefore he agreed to support a cause only showing it in another light because the truth as it is would have been a lot less shocking than what it ended up in the DM and The Telegraph.

Sorry I'm lost - I watched the TV programmes on mental health - but what is the Sabrina story.

I haven't said so before but I suffer with mental health problems. I suffered a severe clinical depression in 2010 following the untimely death of my nearest and dearest friend who I had known and been in close contact with since schooldays. I was hospitalised for 3 months and during that time I did see people with psychotic illnesses and until the meds kicked in they were very much out of touch with reality. I have not made a complete recovery and suffer intermittent depression. Between times I am fine.

Because of my mental health problem I spend quite a lot of time on the MH threads and I am really concerned that so many young mothers are afraid to consult their GP for their depression/anxiety in case Social Services are alerted and their children are removed. I do my utmost to re-assure them that this will not be the case though sadly they are unlikely to get a great deal of support because of the severe financial constraints in LA services, although this is dependent upon the particular geographical area. I get so frustrated that these poor women are afraid to get help from their GPs because of their fear about their children being taken away and lies spread by JH and his ilk simply reinforce the fears of these women whose mental health problems are untreated. These are intelligent woman but they truly believe that their children will be taken away once it is known that they have mental health problems.

Usually if people are suffering from the more serious mental health conditions they will be known to the GP and the psychiatric services, and so will be getting treatment.

I have read a great deal about mental health problems and discussed it many times with my CPN (who I see monthly) and a close friend who is an art therapist in a day centre for people with mental health problems, and there is no doubt in my mind that when the brain malfunctions in some way the outcome can be horrendous. Clearly medication only deals with the symptoms and not the underlying cause. I think childhood trauma (though thankfully not in my case) is the root cause of much mental illness in adults, usually women who have been sexually abused. These people often suffer severe PTSD and there is very little therapy available on the NHS, though again this depends on the geographical location.

I am thinking of all these children who are being sexually abused and whose parents/step-parents/carers are being protected while the child suffers a trauma that will follow them into adulthood and in many cases throughout the lifespan

Ian Joseph should be arrested (creating alarm distress or harassment is a criminal offence) and I think he's doing that at the very least. JH should also face criminal charges. Surely assisting parents who are being investigated concerning child protection issues, to flee out of the jurisdiction of the UK (which he admits to) is perverting the course of justice????

These men are the absolute scrapings of humanity

Sorry, Nana- the Sabrina story is a hijack from those of us in Italy to demonstrate the sanctity of Italian family life is smoke and mirrors. (14 yr old is murdered by her cousin and cousin's mother, and the cousin's father is all over TV trying to persuade the authorities he did it, in order to protect his own child, the actual crim)

www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/reporting-restriction-order-matter-of-child-a%20.pdf

Judgment is out re reporting restrictions.

The one thing I do hope is that these type of judgments can be released immediately in the future to try and stop the conspiracy theorists from gaining traction.

@NanaNina
Thanks for being brave and telling us your story

Yes, they should be arrested or face criminal charges for creating a false situation of alarm. I have seen, in other threads, mums with mental health problems getting scared at the thought of delivering their babies...
Not to speak about the whoke abuse/rape issue within the families.

Defining this behaviour appalling is not enough. I am saving tons of documents, taking dozens of pictures of comments (in case they think that deleting the comments will be enough), all in the hope that someone will take action... Never say never. Maybe Santa exists ;)

Nana, thanks for sharing - you must have a very useful perspective with knowledge of both MH issues and social work.

It is a pity the spotlight is always on those who know very little but don't let that stop them pontificating.

Does anyone remember that awful case of the woman who went to Spain and killed her two young children after her partner was arrested on child sex abuse claims. Apparently she was afraid they would be adopted. I wondered at the time if it might be possible to find out if she had got any particular advise from any particular person.

"Does anyone remember that awful case of the woman who went to Spain and killed her two young children after her partner was arrested on child sex abuse claims. Apparently she was afraid they would be adopted. I wondered at the time if it might be possible to find out if she had got any particular advise from any particular person."

That's a good question Spero....