Nelson Mandela has died

[PacificDogwood]

RIP

He was the first proper hero of mine

I've heard it all now - 95 yr old man dies after period of illness especially over last 6 mths and there's a conspiracy theory!

Old age - and driving cars fast whilst under the influence (Diana's driver) - are sufficient explanations in themselves IMHO

Just came about at the same time that the current ANC head and party under a lot of media scrutiny ... And there was a big show of Zuma meeting a very out-of-it Mandela

Mandela family have been squabbling about burial places and legacy since he was hospitalised ...

And did he time his passing to coincide with the premiere in London of the new film of his life, hey? There's a coincidence - well yes, they do happen

Can we also remember another stoic African leader: Sir Seretse Khama. of what is now Botswana.

He wasn't tortured or imprisoned, but he was denied the right to marry his British fiancé because it might upset the Apartheid Regime.

Eventually he did come back to Bechuanaland and founded the first multi racial and multi party in Africa.

It is still going strong due to his legacy.

They are both giants of humility and wisdom

I'm going to echo so many people on this thread - Nelson Mandela was a hero to me. May he rest in peace.

He believed in everybody having the freedom to enjoy their lives. Freedom from oppression, freedom from fear, freedom from hunger, freedom to live a happy life.

He also said there is still much to be done and there is.

The greatest way we can honour Madiba is to continue trying to change the world for the better. To make poverty a thing of the past. As the great man himself said: it always seems impossible until it is done.

bored of hearing this now.borrrrring, he was 95,not like paul walker who died so oung and actually starred in films and entertained people,all nelson did was get arrested woop.im sure he was a nice fella but my grandma died last year,didnt see her on the news for a week straight,inact she got a half inch message in black and white in 1 local paper and she was only in her 80's ,one you get to 95 you can hardly act like your lifes been cut short

You're clearly an astute and intelligent human being Ryan!

Any death is sad, but that cannot undermine what Nelson Mandela achieved for millions of people in his lifetime, nor the sacrifices he made.

ryan, if your post weren't quite funny , it'd be rather sad.

I will be devastated when my gran dies too, but am under no illusion that she achieved changing the course of millions of lives.

"It always seems impossible until it is done"

Now there's an inspiring thought Bic

'Dont act like your lifes cut short'

ParcelFancy

That's simply not true. In apartheid South Africa that was simply not the case. It is in the Rainbow Nation but it was not like that when I grew up in the 70's and 80's.

I rode my bicycle to Guides which was through and around 30 minutes away. I walked to the 'jewstore' (sorry it's what it was called ), a store in the mines where I was a 9 or 10 year old white girl in a store who's clientele were Black miners. I was not scared. I had more freedom growing up in SA than my children do in London. The most security anyone I knew had was burglar bars. Our back door was never locked!

Today people live in compounds and behind electric fencing .

Sorry.

through farmlands and along lonely roads

AfricanExport, when I was there in the late 80s (very much apartheid South Africa), the fences were going up in the area I was. And the houses were already burglar-barred and alarmed. Leaving the house meant a huge locking up palaver, and the cars had to be kept well serviced so they wouldn't break down getting back from a night shift at the hospital.

But I was actually responding to the statement "Apartheid is alive and well in SA, but it is now the whites who live in compounds" - as if there has somehow been a switch between black and white people since 1994.

Which isn't true.

If that poster was talking about living in separate areas, that happened under - and was a plank of - apartheid.

And if she was talking about violence, several posters have pointed out that being attacked has never been the preserve of white people. Rather the opposite. And those who now live in electrified compounds are the (comparative) haves, not specifically the whites.

And if you'd grown up in London in the 1970s, you'd have had more freedom than your children do in London 2013. You wouldn't have locked your front door if you lived amid farmland in 1970s UK, either.

Things have changed everywhere since we were children. For some people, greatly for the better.

You said that it was so bad white people lived in compounds. That is not true. That all I'm saying. If you said everyone carried a gun .. that would be true. The majority of people now live in compounds or secure neighbourhoods. This is relatively new phenomenon and it only started in the run up to change. The first cluster home I ever visited was in 1992.

If you want to believe that a visit in the 80's makes you all knowing. .. Go ahead.

NM didn't finish the product he only started it. You can't blame him for every single crime that has happened since he was born. That's ridiculous.

I didn't say white people were living in compounds, but enclaves (the word used by other poster), which of course they were. Although IIRC one of the places I was staying was known as a cluster home in the 1980s.

That's just my experience. It doesn't mean it was yours. Big country, after all.

But it does mean that a portrayal of apartheid South Africa as all unlocked doors and cycling schoolgirls, and the end of apartheid as marking a dramatic change in this, would be false. The haves in some areas were ramping security up well before apartheid ended in 1994. And if you include bars on windows - a feature you don't see much in London - that process started a looong time before the end of apartheid.

In fact think I must have missed your point, AfricanExport, because it sounds faintly like, "Oh the golden years of apartheid, how awful the end of apartheid has made things."

But I'm sure that isn't actually what you're saying, and apologies that I'm obviously not quite understanding you.

I also don't know anyone who usually carried a gun or even owned one. But that doesn't make your experience untrue.

Sorry, I think this has diverted from the purpose of the thread.

Apologies, I won't say any more.

There was not realy 'purpose' of the thread other than to express my rather half-baked and only semi-understood emotions at the announcement of NM's death, so debate away.

A lot of totalitarian states have been very 'peaceful' and well organised - freedom is much more risky and scary.

Look at violence in the US, Land of the Free and all that jazz , gun ownership, homicide rates, racial violence etc etc. It's of course not the same, but I think it would be disingenuous to expect some kind of pacifist, equal-opportunity Shangri-La in any country.
Personally, I'd happily visit the US (I have) and SA (I wish), but would not be happy living in either. But the same goes for many other countries on this planet.

On balance, I think that NM has done far, FAR more good than bad and is probably unequalled in prominence amongst public figures worldwide so I think dwelling a bit on his death is right.

Ugh, and I can't even read thread properly - it was me who used enclaves, specifically not to discuss compounds.

I'm obviously gibbering today and not fit to discuss anything.

Am sitting here with my dog, my armed response etc and agree, yes, Mandela did unbelievably more good than harm. I think 99% of the SA population would agree. Feeling v sad but also grateful that he was here.

Me too Salbertina - alarm on, locked up to the nth but so grateful - sad too but also glad he is no longer suffering as he was.

it would be disingenuous to expect some kind of pacifist, equal-opportunity Shangri-La in any country - so true. I think to understand South Africa and in fact the Mandela legacy itself you have to be able to tolerate complexity. It's not all black and white lots of shades of grey.