Nelson Mandela has died

[PacificDogwood]

RIP

He was the first proper hero of mine

There was a referendum in '93 called by the Ruling party asking the voters (whites) if we wanted to continue down the road to change.

I am very glad that FW de Kierk got the Nobel Prize with NM because his contribution was just as important - although he did not have to sacrifice quite as much to the cause.

I was trying to talk to DS3(5) about racism and skin colour and he just looked at me like - he just does not get how that should even come in to consideration when he decides who he wants to be friends with and who he does not like .

I heard an interesting comment on the radio today (no idea who the speaker was) suggesting that Apartheid was as much economy as with race: the white minority had so much to gain by maintaining the status quo and could not see what it could possibly gain.

I'd forgotten about that referendum in '93 Theknackofflying - I was thinking about 1989/90 so actually yes (in answer to Hestershaw's question) the white electorate did vote clearly for change didn't they?

When i was at varsity then the DP was running a yes bus from our res to the polling station

Thank you wordsmith. Very interesting.

I remember the 80s and the Botha era, and the awful escalation of violence. South Africa appeared nightly on the news. In retrospect it was clearly coming to a head. And yet I have a friend, a white South African of English descent, who was a child on a farm and who had literally no idea what was going on in his own country.

PacificDogwood : I love the fact that kids don't get the race thing!

Recently DD (13) met a girl she really clicked with at a party. Anyway, they swapped numbers and DD asked me to take her to meet up with this girl at movies a couple of weeks later. On the way in the car I was asking her about her new friend. DD said, "Oh she's so nice, so funny. She's got cool hair, likes the same kind of music as me ... yada yada."

Anyway we got to the movie and her friend is brown skinned. I said nothing but inwardly thought how lovely that the next generation of South Africans is free from all this race crap (to some extent).

It was just that the colour of her skin was the least interesting thing to DD and was irrelevant. It's minor miracles like that which keep me going in the face of the bad stuff in SA.

"One issue that deeply worried me in prison was the false image I unwittingly projected to the outside world; of being regarded as a saint.

"I never was one, even on the basis of an earthly definition of a saint as a sinner who keeps trying."

Mandela in 2010.

I understand a fascination with the 'other':
I was in a rather remote part of western Uganda some 20 years ago and was the only white person for miles around. I had long, brown hair which was a source of never-ending fascination to local children who would sneak up and touch it, then run off giggling or screeching when I pretended to turn around and 'get them' .

I remember feeling v odd at being so recognisable purely for the colour of me and how isolating it was even though I never ever encountered any unpleasantness towards me personally. But there was no hiding in the crowd...

I am only mentioning this because to me that memory makes NM's inclusiveness and active desire to reconcile ALL peoples of his country so much more poignant and real.

I think they need some of NM's spirit of reconciliation on the AIBU thread about NM - it's all kicking off there!

Hestershaw: And yet I have a friend, a white South African of English descent, who was a child on a farm and who had literally no idea what was going on in his own country.

Yep, I've seen this too - I'm not sure how it happens - parallel universe perhaps? Never understood so can't shed any light I'm afraid!

My dd is at University and shares accommodation with a white South African boy. She phoned me this afternoon to tell me that on hearing of Mandela's death, her flatmate was very upset. When he was calm he made a lovely speech to his friends about Mandela.

He had met him several times as a baby as they were neighbours and he has photos of himself with Mandela. Mandela used to love pushing him around the garden in his pram. Such simple things gave Mandela pleasure. How fantastic is that?

Pressed too soon! Except to say: at my own "hotbed of anti-apartheid activity university" there'd be people who were like, "Hey what are the waves doing today?" And you'd think to yourself - bloody hell the country's going up in flames and every day you come in and obsess about the waves. (Not casting any aspersions on surfer dudes in particular - my point is just that I suppose some people are apolitical to a fault (IMO))

So many people seem to have a cool Mandela story like that ExcuseTypos. I think he was just a nice guy - not a saint - but a good person.

Not sad at all, just glad that I lived at the time to experience him.

That new generation not getting racism thing (because as someone said it's not only immoral but stupid too) reminds me of a story about ds when he was little. He'd been talking a lot about a new friend of his at school, and one morning I asked ds to point him out in the playground. ds said "He's that yellow boy over there" OK, I thought .... I looked across the playground ....
"yes mummy, over there with the yellow coat"
Ah, of course!

Sorry to lower the tone but is anyone aware of the 'Mandela is a terrorist' type posts on Facebook? I've just come across one and I'm shocked tbh. I've had a look at the page it's from and basically a load of edl supporters bashing 'the Muslims', same predictable old shit. I'm torn between just defriending or challenging.

Apologies for bringing Facebook moans to this thread.

Well, he committed or helped plan to commit acts of terrorism, of course he did.
There was some discussion on another thread about justification of use of violence when left in a situation in which you had NO rights and the 'other side' was simply not engaging in attempts of dialogue.
AFAIK the 'terrorism' he was involved with was directed at things: railway lines, bridges etc. There were of course fatalities.

Personally, he shall remain a freedom fighter and not a terrorist in my mind.

FB is the devil's and I have no idea how you'd deal with crap like that.

Ah, I didn't know there was another thread, could you link for me/direct me to it please?

he never intended to kill anybody it was to distrupt things not kill anybody , the call he was a terrorist always irks me a little bit , but I guess at that time he was trying to free his country

Did anyone see Mandela responding to the question of whether he and ANC were involved in acts of terrorism on the excellent Dimbleby tribute last night?
Mandela talked about the definition of terrorism as being acts of violence against innocent people IIRC
I think he left that question hanging in the air about whether the people affected by ANC armed conflict were innocent. The division between terrorism and warfare or armed conflict is not always easy to determine and can depend on your perception of different situations.
Personally I am towards the pacifist end of the spectrum, and think much can be achieved with non-violent protest, but compared to NM I've had a very entitled and easy life.
Seems like he became more peaceful in his approach with increasing age but perhaps some important freedoms had been hard won by then?

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.”

Nelson Mandela

Stolen from the other thread - link coming up.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1932563-to-hate-it-when-famous-people-die

How absolutely marvellous to have been such an inspirational human being, live to the grand old age of 95 and be passed down in the history books for ever more.

R.I.P Nelson Mandela..you deserve too.

Thank you pacific, will have a read of that thread. Good quote.

He freed the black people of South Africa from oppression. He endured long years in prison, much of it in solitary confinement but he did not allow it to make him bitter. He changed South Africa forever by bringing down the apartheid system and giving black people the equality and opportunities that they had been denied before. He is my hero and I am so sad that he is gone but he will always be remembered for his courage and his capacity to forgive. He had his faults like all of us but he was a great man and the world is a lesser place now he has gone. My thoughts and prayers are with his family.

I was privileged to have been a volunteer at the polling booths of the first democratic election in SA. Watching that footage has been a moving experience.

Re the comment above of white S.Africans having 'no idea what was going on' - this is true and it was because there was a complete media shutdown in SA - I was very young but I remember my European family used to phone and ask us if we were ok as they saw things on the news that we didn't.