Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

It is extremely important men like John Hemming continue their work. There are far too many miscarriages of justice in family law and it is only by greater openness, more published judgements and much greater rights for parents that faith will be restored in the system. Any good professional involved in the area should welcome more scrutiny.

You who has lied and manipulated the truth in order to push your own political agenda.
Evidence please.

Published timeline of events says the mother applied to the Italian courts to make an order to return the baby to Italy, and they refused to do so, and decided the baby should stay in England

I can't see why anyone would wish the Italian care system on this baby either, and I do believe social services when they say they liased with extended family after the birth. The extended Italian family don't seem to be fighting to care of this baby.

spero: We can have an evidenced based debate by discussing the two judgments surely?

True. I have commented on the judgments.

On the Caesarean judgment where is the voice of the protected person being heard. What is the additional risk either to baby or mother of VBAC?
What are the grounds for overriding a decision made before she lost capacity (if indeed she did lose capacity). Where is the capacity test.

See the case of Sarah Matthews:
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131127/petntext/131127p0001.htm

Don't tell people you don't trust the system. They will remove your capacity for it.

The evidence that JH has lied and manipulated the truth is all set out in e Carl Gardner blog post to which I linked, and I recommend it.

Very illuminating.

Also click on the link in the comments re Brendan Fleming which will show you how this man conducts himself.

johnhemming - since you apparently know so many more details about the case than have been published here, could you tell us anything more about the mother's previous two caesareans? Did she consent to those? And if so, why would she suddenly choose to try to give birth naturally (while in a state of severe mental illness)?

As far as I can see, no one has actually said that in the circumstances it would have been sensible to attempt a natural birth - the only issue is whether she formally consented to the c-section, but given her mental state at the time, it appears she was not in a fit state to consent or oppose it.

Spero posted some evidence earlier John.

So please do tell me why you think we are better off trusting you, rather than professionals and experts.

could you tell us anything more about the mother's previous two caesareans?
I am aware of this, but need her permission to talk about it.

spero: claiming that I lied based upon someone else's post does not protect you from a defamation claim. We went through this before. I am unlikely to sue, but I would prefer that you did not repeat defamatory comments.

What I find sad is that people such as spero who are family court barristers are so unwilling to debate the issues and prefer instead to post abuse.

Nothing new though.

No mention of the case at all on Italian TV news on either main channel tonight btw.

I cordially invite you to sue me for defamation.

You have all my details, please let me know if you need them again.

You can serve court papers to me in chambers.

I shall enjoy our time in court.

Please do.

I stand by everything I have said.

Perhaps this will give your supporters pause for thought when they see how you threaten people who challenge you?

So much for freedom of speech.

This thread has been derailed badly. Thought it was a place for people to have challenging but respectful discussions with each other. But now it just seems to be full of people so just so happen to be social workers, health visitors and other 'interested' parties. I didn't think Mumsnet was meant to be a lobby.

I don't see the reason why the details of the cases cannot be discussed and disclosed publicly? I understand the need to protect the names of the people involved, but there must be a better way in which these cases can be handled.

But who's to say the mother didn't plan a VBAC from earlier on her pregnancy, prior to even coming to the UK. What is worrying about the Court of Protection transcript is that there was no examination of what her birth plan were.

Blimey, this is getting personal.

Italians don't do birth plans Ladyjaxo.

Up to 60% of Italian women have planned, elective C-sections.

I presume up until her baby was "ripped from her womb" the woman in question was planning to do the same.

(I mean in the sense of the official written "I want whale music and lavender oil and a bar of Galaxy bringing to me every 30 mins" kind of thing, obviously one plans how one wants to give birth in a very general sense)

Spero - Can you stop making this thread about you so we can concentrate on the subject matter? Reported as this is becoming personal and offtopic

I would rather fight injustice than sue spero.