Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

Of course it should never have happened.

But it did. And it was remedied.

There is a big difference between a system operated by fallible human beings, which is underfunded and creaking at the seams, and a system which is deliberately malign and corrupt which operates to steal babies to order for paedophile gangs.

There are a number of people on this thread who seem to want to believe the latter, repeating the advice of Ian Joseph NOT to report child abuse because you cannot trust anyone in authority to help.

Really dangerous, irresponsible stuff.

It is a shame that The Telegraph printed a story (together with the Daily Mail) and it seems just an attempt to criminalise British social services who acted horribly towards an Italian citizen and her child.
What the Telegraph, Independent and Daily Mail failed to record is that a judge in Rome actually stated that the matter was under British jurisdiction and let them operate as they saw fit to do. Now... Why is this piece of information reported in all Italian newspapers yet it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any British source?
Why is this even important news for British citizens who are rushing to comment on every single thread online and nobody actually bothered to comment on Italian discussions?

Mmm.. [hmmm] it is just me or I don't see the father of this child stepping in in any of the above mentioned articles?

There are a few unresolved questions there and it seems that all the story has been used to make some poor journalistic sensationalism and instrumentalised to push somebody else's political agenda.

Last year I was phoned by a social worker who had interviewed my son with ASD in school. She told me to pick my son up immediately from school and take him to A&E for an emergency mental health assessment after he disclosed to her that he was having suicidal thoughts and was self harming (long well documented history of self harming by experts and the reasons ie school anxiety etc)

In A&E he wasn't sectioned, but discharged into my care, with a safety plan in place. Part of the written safety plan was for him not to attend school if it increased his self harming and suicidal thoughts. I also took my son to GP and she wrote that he was not fit to attend school, copies of which I gave to all concerned.

A week later the same social worker phoned my GP and told her to withdraw her medical certificate. She refused, she also told social worker she was off on her holidays that evening and wouldn't be back for 3 weeks, so couldn't be contacted.

Next day social worker called a meeting with mental health experts (who hadn't even seen my son yet) told them I had lied to my GP and that my GP had removed her medical certificate.

Social worker then drew up a plan (all by herself and signed by her alone) saying that I should return my son to school and if I didn't the local authority could start child protection proceedings against me.

I refused and was threatened with child protection proceedings several times and by social workers manager too. The same social worker even came to my house, told my son he was a law breaker and tried to force him to leave the house and take him to school.

I employed a solicitor, who made formal complaints about her. I still haven't had a reply from social services. Then all their records of ds, disappeared from the system.

I wonder what would have happened if I too was vulnerable, not aware of my rights or had learning difficulties myself or suffered with mental health problems or if I couldn't afford legal advice?

I realise giving individual examples of bad practise, doesn't prove anything with relation to this thread, however sometimes social services can abuse their powers.

From the article of the case that Edam linked to

"Ivan Maddocks said yesterday: ‘After he was put in the care homes something was really wrong. He wasn’t happy. He wasn’t eating properly. I took him out one day and he fell asleep. He was all out. I think they were over-drugging him. He collapsed in the care home.

‘In three weeks his kidneys were failing. He was just bones, dead thin with his eyes rolling over occasionally, on a drip, twitching. On the death certificate it said he had died because he hadn’t been eating or drinking."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314939/Jailed-secret--A-new-injustice-Brother-woman-locked-trying-save-father-care-home-handed-punishment-court.html

What on earth is going on in this country?

We had the Liverpool Care Pathway, we had the hospital scandal in Mid-Staffs with gagging of whstleblowers, we have secret courts and an MP saying about some of our social services

"These people are dictators who abuse their powers. They are arrogant bullies and people are frightened of them."

and we still have people of dying of dehydration in some of our care homes

"Dehydration kills two care home residents every week: Vulnerable patients suffering fatal neglect despite ministers saying problem was 'unacceptable' two years ago

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516692/Dehydration-kills-people-week-care-homes.html

and apart from some brave MPs and campaigners who have the courage to speak out about what is going on, everyone else continues with business and politics as usual and the public is expected to vote for more of the same.

Lake - what the Italian judge said correct but limited. The child was born in the UK, so indeed UK courts do have jurisdiction. That is not an excuse for UK social services doing what they will and insisting on having the child adopted, and adopted in the UK. There is nothing to stop Essex SS liaising with the Italian authorities and Italian family. They may just have decided it would take too much time and be too expensive - the authority has been making cuts.

"What the Telegraph, Independent and Daily Mail failed to record is that a judge in Rome actually stated that the matter was under British jurisdiction and let them operate as they saw fit to do. Now... Why is this piece of information reported in all Italian newspapers yet it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any British source?
Why is this even important news for British citizens who are rushing to comment on every single thread online and nobody actually bothered to comment on Italian discussions?"

I am sorry but that i wrong. The Telegraph told us about the jurisidction.

"The High Court in Rome expressed outrage at what had been done to an Italian citizen “habitually resident” in Italy. But the judge there concluded that, since she had not protested at the time, she had accepted that the British courts had jurisdiction – even though she had not known what was to be done to her, was deemed to have no “capacity” to instruct lawyers because she had been sectioned, and had only been represented by solicitors assigned to her by the local authority."

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10485281/Operate-on-this-mother-so-that-we-can-take-her-baby.html

Some of us can understand Italian, but we're probably too frightened (a term usd by a Tory MP) to mention Italian reports in case they break the law of the Court of This or That.

And the real question is why is the law like that and what rights does the moher have?

'since she had not protested at the time , she had accepted that the British courts had jurisdiction – even though she had not known what was to be done to her'

We have rights, but most of us don't know what they are, but that is why we are subjects of the law and entitled to protection by the law and we should be told our rights before being assumed to have consented to jurisdiction.

What if a mother has learning difficulties and can't read or write, is she assumed to have given consent? There must be independent legal representation and help for every citizen against the powers of the state.

"They are arrogant bullies and people are frightened of them."

That is what the Tory MP said.

Why on earth should any citizen be frightened of the state and its institutions which are there to serve us and are paid for by us?

I'm the last person who would say SS always get it right, I know far too much of the bad stuff - like my daughter's godmother was probably responsible for a well known death. I could easily get into a competition with some of the stories here, but I won't.

The point is that with JH/ BF involved what you are reading is NOT the truth. It can be guaranteed. Not only are they untrustworthy but there are so many holes in this story that you don't need the full picture. We will never get the full picture because it is family court and can't legally be discussed which is why we're getting it all third hand.

Maybe this case has been handled badly, we don't know, but it's most certainly not been handled like these stories describe.

@claig, the High Court in Rome didn't care at all, let alone being outraged as The Telegraph is stating.
In the Italian news the story is bottom lower level, floods killing people and Chinese people dying in a factory more important news than this one. And why should it be important?

Of course she got assigned to a local lawyer, how would an Italian lawyer have any knowledge about British law system? On which grounds?
'Habitually resident' on Italian soil regards the 50% of Italians in UK, for your information. If you don't register with AIRE (register of the Italian expats) Italian government keeps considering you as 'habitually resident'. i have a friend working in UK for the last five years and she is resident in Italy for Italian authorities!

Well, I am not frightened that I am an Italian citizen, I am not even scared a wee bit to say that this paper has been mounting a case against British subjects...
Not that it doesn't hold some truth to it (social services taking over and forcing someone to have a c-section... That is awful!), yet... Don't look at things only from your British perspective.

However, in my opinion the ECC has not a shred of a right to give the baby into adoption without the mother or the mother's family consent.

"We will never get the full picture because it is family court and can't legally be discussed which is why we're getting it all third hand.

Maybe this case has been handled badly, we don't know"

But surely someone should know, someone should be able to find out because we live in a democracy and the law we are subject to must be seen to be fair and just.

Yes, people know but it can't be discussed like JH does.

"the High Court in Rome didn't care at all, let alone being outraged ....
In the Italian news the story is bottom lower level, ...
And why should it be important?"

But the Mail does care, it's on the front page, and we care, because if we don't care, then today it may be that mother, and tomorrow it may be us.

@claig, following Italian laws, the identity of mother and child involved cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, as well as it is for British laws.

So you won't ever know the truth, either way. I am suspecting something worse than what stated around but that would open another discussion and this is not the right place to discuss it.

'Of course she got assigned to a local lawyer, how would an Italian lawyer have any knowledge about British law system?'

Who assigned the local lawyer? If I were an Italian citizen in a foreign country, i would hope that the Italian Embassy or Consul or whatever could help me.

"following Italian laws, the identity of mother and child involved cannot be disclosed for legal reasons, as well as it is for British laws."

Is this some kind of EU wide law? Are all European states subject to similar laws?

@claig, The Daily Mail was nicknamed The Daily Fail in Scotland, that speaks volumes about the seriousness of their articles and how much they research about topics :D

I usually don't care about the gossipy rags printing off stories to sell papers, nor I do take them seriously either, unless a confirmation comes through other sources ;) this time I am pleased to see that Italian-usually-awful papers are doing a better job than British ones in reporting news.

Quite, claig. But apparently even imprisoning people doesn't show there's anything wrong with the system, 'because there was a response and a remedy'. Never mind the terror of being snatched off the street and thrown into prison. Of the weeks this poor woman spent in prison.

And even more worryingly, of the plight of her poor father, who was suddenly deprived of his daughter without understanding why, and is detained in a residential home where he doesn't want to be, when we know some homes abuse and neglect the disabled and elderly. But don't dare to protest, because the authorities will lash out at you with all the power at their command, and even beyond what they actually have power to do.

But it's all fine because the court has issued fresh guidance. Woop de do. That will stop the social workers who tried to have this woman imprisoned for daring to protest about her father's treatment bullying and frightening other victims and families, won't it?

@claig, if any kind of crime happens in a foreign country, it is that country laws and courts having jurisdiction over the subjects involved. Italian embassy never steps in, they just don't care. I am an abuse/rape survivor and you know what the consulate told me? Well, if the case goes to the European court, we step in. Otherwise your business!
Not surprised they knew and they didn't care. Once you leave their country, you are dead meat.

'However, in my opinion the ECC has not a shred of a right to give the baby into adoption without the mother or the mother's family consent.'

What is the ECC?

Yes this is all about the rights of the mother and the rights of the state, and while we in the UK are subject to the Court of This and That and can't say this or that, this woman is an Italian citizen and that is why it is even more shocking.

@claig, I guess that European laws would protect the identity of mother and child anyway? By the way, European law system cannot overrule the single states law systems, that would be morally and ethically unacceptable.

Yes, good point.

Essex County Council.
It is funny, from my perspective, that you are shocked about all this story. If this woman was having this kind of accident in Italy, the child would have probably been dead.
Italy is tipping the list for children killed by mothers suffering postpartum depression. I won't justify the social services behaviour here. Yet, I am sure that a few things we are unaware of happened.

@claig, given that you understand a bit of Italian, the most recent case:
www.ilsussidiario.net/News/Cronaca/2013/10/25/OMICIDIO-Lecco-bambino-di-tre-anni-ucciso-a-coltellate-dalla-mamma/438701/