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Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

999 replies

StarlightMcKenzie · 30/11/2013 22:38

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

OP posts:
MadameDefarge · 02/12/2013 01:21

OKaaaaaay.

deepfriedsage · 02/12/2013 01:22

Someone I know predicted this would happen a focus on parents like this.

confuddledDOTcom · 02/12/2013 01:23

Madame, I am still unsure what I said other than ONE SOLICITOR is corrupt.

santandhishappybandofelves · 02/12/2013 01:25

can someone relink to the patients groups concerns I cant find the link

claig · 02/12/2013 01:27

'The SOS – NHS Patients in Danger pressure group said: ‘This is extremely troubling. We would ask why the caesarean order was not challenged by NHS doctors.’'

That is all the Mail says about it

confuddledDOTcom · 02/12/2013 01:27

Just read the thread since then. Let me explain:

There was discussion on whether or not they were all corrupt.

I said they may not all be corrupt but this lady found one (Brendan Flemming) and I made a sad face because I am worried for her on that basis.

Put it this way, having a discussion with a couple of people from SS today, I'd already told one and we were explaining to the other. The first said "You won't believe who's representing her" the second one sighed, dropped her head and said "Please don't say Brendan Flemming".

MadameDefarge · 02/12/2013 01:30

mucho big apologies confuddled!

claig · 02/12/2013 01:32

what is the problem wth Flemming, does he lose a lot of cases or what?

confuddledDOTcom · 02/12/2013 01:35

Thank you Madam Smile

claig, it's difficult to explain here without saying things that could get me in trouble. He is in with JH and the like for a start, so you can imagine the damage a solicitor in their camp does. He also employs not so above board methods to get the job done.

claig · 02/12/2013 01:41

Yes, don't say anthing

WhatAgain · 02/12/2013 04:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GoshAnneGorilla · 02/12/2013 05:00

Just popping back to thank Spero, Madame and others for their input.

Spero · 02/12/2013 07:23

What again - my area of expertise is care and court of protection hearings. All I can say is that I have never, in 15 years, seen a psychologist attempt to make a medical diagnosis without being slapped down - they simply aren't qualified to do so and to be fair, most reports I have read say 'I cannot offer an opinion about a psychiatric condition the parents may have, you need to see a psychiatrist'.

But there is overlap between what a psychologist and psychiatrist can legitimately argue about and with educational issues I think there is fertile ground for overlap - I have had cases with children not doing well at school and there was often debate about extent to which ADHD existed separately from child reacting to parenting.

I am glad you had a good lawyer - that is the point I try to make, that the system isn't systemically corrupt and there are good, competent people to help others.

Yes, LA can get it very badly wrong at times but I am very worried this is because they simply don't have enough staff or enough financial backing to make sure decision making is good quality at all times.

When I read posts like those from deepfriedsage, my heart sinks because yet again the focus moves from the real problems to suggest that this is all part of some bizarre child porn conspiracy, presumably (as was alleged in a thread last year) that children are taken into care to be sent to sex parties with the senior judiciary.

The problem is stories about lack of funding and stressed out social workers going on long term sick are not 'sexy' enough to get the campaigning juices flowing for the likes of Hemming and Flemming. I don't think I have heard a peep out of them about the recent gov decision to cut funding to Kids Company for example.

PacificDogwood · 02/12/2013 08:37

Right, I've caught up. And shall be backing away from this thread after this post because there is much over the top frothing about something WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT.

Speculation is just not helpful.
My heart goes out to everybody who has had terrible experiences with LA, SW, HCP etc, but we don't really know what went on in this case.
As is so often the case a few pertinent details get whipped in to an open-and-shut outrage (yes, I am looking at the press) with well chosen words that are just enough to make everybody feel sick ("women set up to have CS so LA could steal her baby" "adoption quote not reached" or words to that effect) without being slanderous (I'd imagine). It is irresponsible and wrong.

We don't have enough facts.

Please, please seek help if you have any suspicions about a child being abused - Childline or NSPCC can offer advice anonymously. Do not do nothing. Please don't Sad.

Thanks to everybody who is taking the time and making the effort to post considerate, factual posts on here.
This is far to important to allow for frothing to muddy the waters.

A woman's right to determine what happens to her body is such an important issue and MUST be paramount even if the baby's life is at risk by her decision.

There is more to this case than meets the eye at this moment in time.

Spero · 02/12/2013 09:06

Well said. I agree.

ClairesTravellingCircus · 02/12/2013 09:19

Very wise words Pacific

WhatAgain · 02/12/2013 09:25

Spero, I don't want derail the OP and the original purpose of this thread, but have to reply to your post as it relates to my post and points about psychologists/psychiatrists.

All I can say is that I have never, in 15 years, seen a psychologist attempt to make a medical diagnosis without being slapped down

saragossa2010 · 02/12/2013 09:30

Whatever people's views of JH I can think of no one else except CB in the Telegraph who publicise these kinds of cases. I think that's awful. Every profession should be happy to be subject to scrutiny and welcome criticism as it is only by that that we can improve.We need much more publicity. That in itself should be welcomed by social workers as it will give them the chance to prove what a good job they often do.

It is one reason it is a welcome trend that some judges are publishing more child contact decisions which a really good idea as it allows them to show all the detail rather than just what one or other side has chosen to publish.

I still remain with my advice never involve SS or the police in your family life you can possibly help it. Sort out your own problems. Keep away from the state. Parents have always known this even going back 200 years.

claw2 · 02/12/2013 09:35

Wow, is all I can say.

Having experienced the abuse of power by social services myself, I really shouldn't be surprised, a massive step too far.

StarlightMcKenzie · 02/12/2013 09:58

The law might exist to protect wrong-doing, but I also have first hand experience of poor law enforcement when it comes to Local Authorities and regular shrugging to law-breaking by those supposed to be holding LA's to account means that LA's are less likely to fear flouting it.

I also have a friend who took a case to the Local Government Ombudsman who ruled that whilst the LA did break the law, they were reasonable to do so due to the funding context within which the LA worked.

These kinds of rulings are dangerous for obvious reason, but they exist and they appear (At least in the world of SN which is where my widest experience lies) to be fairly common.

OP posts:
claw2 · 02/12/2013 11:39

After experience of social services and their underhandedness, I would say it is perfect plausible that this story is true.

In my experience, some social workers think it is perfectly acceptable to override written medical advice, psychiatric advice and not to follow their own regulations or guidelines and do their own thing.

Luckily for me, my mental health was intact and I was able to fight back and put a stop to it.

Some would also be surprised to here that any evidence of 'wrong doing' disappears completely from social services systems!

I think after reading time and time again, about cases where children have been abused and left to die and social services 'mistakes', this story should cause a social services shake up, however I find myself reading even more shocking stories.

claw2 · 02/12/2013 11:57

I would also like to point out that I do not think that social workers are 'baby snatchers' etc. In my experience it seems they are inexperienced, under trained and over worked, which leads to terrible mistakes and abuse of power.

Where money is concerned, whether that be social services or any other service, corners are cut intentionally, which often leads to dishonesty by those in power. The worst kind of dishonesty where social services are concerned, as it involves the lives of extremely vulnerable people.

edamsavestheday · 02/12/2013 12:28

I'm not convinced the Court of Protection always acts reasonably, honourably and in the best interests of vulnerable people. This is the court that jailed a woman www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314939/Jailed-secret--A-new-injustice-Brother-woman-locked-trying-save-father-care-home-handed-punishment-court.html in secret, who had had no opportunity to take part in court proceedings, represent herself or seek legal representation.

A court that can lock people up in secret, who have no chance to defend themselves, is a court that is way out of control. And this is the court we are trusting to decide what is best for this mother and child?

Spero · 02/12/2013 12:40

Can I just say that the case to which edam refers led to very clear guidance circulated to all professionals and judges in this field that this should not be happening and all proceedings involving imprisonment must be held in public.

Yes, it was an egregious error, but there was a response and a remedy. This is not a court 'out of control'. We have the rule of law in this country. We don't always get it right, but you cannot extrapolate from that endemic corruption and deliberate babysnatching.

Whatagain - my area of expertise is not educational tribunals, so it probably isn't helpful if I try to comment about them. All I can say is what I have experienced over a number of years. I would not find it usual for a psychologist in care proceedings to attempt a medical diagnosis and when it has happened, it is noticed by all and commented upon unfavourably.

edamsavestheday · 02/12/2013 12:56

I'm glad to hear it Spero. But it should never have happened in the first place. Was the judge involved removed? Is s/he still making decisions about vulnerable people?