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Latest Wakefield MMR Scandal

239 replies

twiglett · 23/02/2004 10:18

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Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 22:29

That's great susan. Shame it takes a bunch of mums to change something so detrimental to children's health, what with all the scientists there are in the world.

Jimjams · 29/02/2004 09:07

Your dh does sound a very good GP susan (I have to say- I know I have before- mine is pretty good as well- I have all the time in the world for good GP's).

Just to finish- I was shown this yesterday and I thought it was the loveliest article written during this whole affair. He really understands the point about mum's noticing changes.

from The Western Morning News

twiglett · 29/02/2004 09:18

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Jimjams · 29/02/2004 09:24

Yes I know what you mean twiglett.

katierocket · 29/02/2004 09:25

that really is a good article. Makes the point perfectly.

twiglett · 29/02/2004 09:31

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Jimjams · 29/02/2004 10:30

oh go on twiglett- do!

Jimjams · 29/02/2004 10:30

The Indie might run it.

Clarinet60 · 29/02/2004 11:29

Please do, Twigglett.

Clarinet60 · 29/02/2004 14:22

Guys, there are some brilliant letters in the ST today. Here's the gist of some:

'According to your report on Wakefield's MMR work, scientific studies authored by researchers with possible conflicts of interest are 'fatally flawed'. Where does that leave the studies the biotech industry claims to have done, and which the government chooses to believe, showing the safety of GM crops and foods? Epidemiological studies cannot prove cause and effect, even in the most obvious cases such as smoking and lung cancer: they can only point to an association. Wakefield has done this. Now he and other researchers must take the work further before MMR can be consigned to the dustbin or given a clean bill of health.'

'Vaccine strain measles virus has been independently identified in the inflamed GI tracts of children with regressive autism. Measles virus antibodies have been found in children with regressive autism. Are these points evidence of causality? No. But they provide a palusible biomolecular mechanism for brain damage, from harmful chemicals and other substances getting into the bloodstream (including the mercury from the thiomersal that used to be the MMR shot here, and still is in Americal (not sure he's correct here). Why isn't it accepted by health authorities as worthy of investigation? There is a built in conflict of interest when the authorities promoting vaccination are also the ones monitoring the safety of vaccines .........'

wiltshire · 29/02/2004 23:42

Paula good for you. This particular thread has a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about this subject. But, they are very down on anyone, who, just like me has popped in to see the reactions to this very controversial subject.

Paula71 · 29/02/2004 23:53

I wasn't going to but this is how I was trying to put it. I read this today and if I was eloquent or articulate I would have put it more like this...

scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=237982004

twiglett · 01/03/2004 09:45

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Jimjams · 01/03/2004 10:30

To be honest though Paula I find that article as offensive as your one line. It's not how its said- it's the sentiment. let me try and explain why:

From the article:

"THE knives are out for Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who linked autism to the MMR vaccine. Over the last few weeks, various reports have indicated serious flaws in his research. News has also emerged that he received (but did not disclose) £55,000 from a legal aid project set up to look for links between the vaccine and the disorder. Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, admitted that his journal would not have published Wakefield?s paper in February 1998 had it known about his conflict of interest. Stated simply, for the last six years parents have been tortured by a myth."

Except this is crap. The whoe funding thing has been blown out of proportion. Read further down the list. He did disclose it - it didn't cause a rucus at the time. The people writing pro MMR articles often have far bigger conflicts of interest than this- again in article further donwn. Anyway that is by the by.

"Coverage now stands at 79%, leading to fears that epidemics of measles, mumps and rubella will result."

This is manipulation. Coverage of MMR is 79%. What is coverage of measles and rubella? I bet its close to the figures they want. Mumps isn't, but then it wouldn;t be as the government is restricting the supply. If you don't believe me- ring a single jabs clinic and ask them.

"The flaws in Wakefield?s research are huge. His sample consisted of just 12 children, all of whom displayed autistic symptoms. In other words, there was no control group of healthy children for comparison. The way the children were selected also seems suspicious. In nine cases, the parents or paediatrician speculated that the MMR vaccine had contributed to behavioural problems. So they were already disposed to the idea of a connection. These children were referred to Wakefield, rather than being a random sample of autistic children. Furthermore, in four cases, the symptoms of autism pre-dated the administration of the vaccine."

The problems with sample size were mentioned in the orginal research paper. The children were chosen according to clinical need. The reference to MMR in the paper was passing line. The paper focused on the the bowel condition of these children- it described a novel type of bowel disease in the child.

" even at the risk of exposure to measles, mumps or rubella, which have potentially more catastrophic consequences than autism."
Eh? Mumps has potentially more catastrophic consequences than autism??? Really? well I don;t know which form of autism he's sharing a house with but I'd take a sterile child any day over an autistic one. Sorry but I would.

Measles is the most serious of the diseases (except rubella in pregnant women but there are other ways to protect girls). And this is from a medical family book I have written by a consultant. Dates from the 80's- my reprint in 1990. "MOst children catch measles....between the ages of one and six......Having the disease once provides immunity for life....few escape it. In most communities of the world (where measles has been established for centuries), the condition is mild, and hardly ever dangerous" The it goes onto say complications can be treated with anitbiotics "but may in a few cases require hospital admission". Hardly the mass state of hysteria that surrounds measles now. My mum had measles complications, but when I had it she didn't wring her hands expecting me to die. In fact once I was over the worst she went back to work and left me with my friend's mum as my friend was off school with whooping cough.

"To maintain suspicion requires not only ignoring the flaws in Wakefield?s research, but also turning a blind eye to the large number of studies which show no causal link."

I assume this person is no statistican. The other studies show the jab is safe for most people that's all. Doesn;t show whether people have been damaged by it.

"The conclusions of these studies are remarkably similar: all show that, during the period under investigation, the incidence of autism has increased dramatically, while the level of MMR vaccination has remained virtually constant. If there were a link, one would expect the shape of the MMR level of immunisation curve to be very similar to the autism case numbers, which it is not."

No no no- not true- because of the time delay in diagnosis. Youd would expect the incidence to level off after an initial increase which is what has happened.
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"In the most comprehensive research, all children born in Denmark between January 1991 and December 1998 were studied. Of 537,303 children, 440,655 received the MMR shot, while 96,648 did not. Researchers found no difference in the incidence of autism between the two groups."

Well
its epidemiological again. So again it shows us that MMR is safe for most children which we know. There are problems of diagnosis here. For starters children in Denmark aren't generally diasgnosed with autism until school age (is that 6 or 7 in Denamrk)? So who knows. The effect may well be too small to be statictically significant anyway.

"Some parents are nevertheless inclined to trust Wakefield?s skewed sample of 12 rather than the conclusions drawn from studying hundreds of thousands of children around the world."

Because Wakefiled (along with others - who have found similar reuslts) LOOKED AT THE CHILDREN.

"As far as I can tell, doctors have nothing to gain from administering the MMR, other than the noble one of protecting the population from dreadful diseases."

No but drugs conpanies do, The other problem is that if the govt now turns round as says "oh whoops" then it will put the entire vaccination programme at risk (especially if as seems likely- thimerosil reveals itself to be a problem as well). Better a bit of collateral damage.

"The MMR myth is, I think, a symptom of our compensation culture."

This is simply offensive

"People nowadays believe that all ailments should have explanation and cure. When they do not, the doctors are blamed, and compensation is sought."

Offensive again. I don't waste my time on looking for a cure. Autism is lifelong - that's fine. HOwever I still don't think my son was born autistic (and no I'm not seeking compensation)

"While this might seem attractive to individuals, applied across the country it would mean multiplying the number of doctor visits by three, which would overwhelm NHS resources."

Would be a damm sight cheaper than providing a lifetime of care to damaged children/adults. Not to mention the costs in terms of family breakdown and therefore reliance on the state (8 out of 10 parents with an autistic child divorce)

"More importantly, it would mean that, while waiting for the series of injections to be completed, children would be vulnerable to dangerous diseases."

Which serious diseases? Mumps was very rare before MMR introduction and couldn't be classed as serious anyway.

"According to the Center for Disease Control, if phased injections were instituted in the US, four million children would be exposed to rubella for an additional six to 12 months."

And? Surely the only problem is the number of first trimester pregnancies where the mother has no antibodies. Why not test teenage girls for antibodies?

"Autism is a mysterious condition. It arrives virtually without warning, utterly transforming a seemingly normal child."

Not without warning. In cases where it has been present since birth there are ample signs almost from day one. I caqn pinpoint the month my child slipped into autism and yep I'm happy to share the videos. Bring a psychologist they can explaint he importance of gaze monitering (which he's doing then he isn't).

"But explanation of the condition, whether based on solid science or suspicious myth, does not change the child."

I'm not trying to change my child. I'd like him to learn some language. Does that consitute change?

"I don?t know why my son is autistic. I suspect it has something to do with his mysterious genes."
Well did he show signs of autism from an early age? If so maybe. even if the effect was environmental then of course it will have a genetic component as well. As does yoiur risk of developing lung cancer if you smoke 80 a day.

"instead of pouring energy and money into finding a culprit we can instead direct resources toward finding a cure."

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. This made me draw breath. There is no cure. (You can work damm hard to correct gut problems, or to teacxh your child using a method they will understand- but cure? no)

Clarinet60 · 01/03/2004 10:46

I think the thread speaks for itself.
Paula, if you really believe the contents of the article you posted, then that's your prerogative. I think it fails to address the fact that vaccine strain measles was found in the guts of those children. Those children. Nobody is saying that all children are affected, but the government doesn't want to find out what VACCINE STRAIN measles is doing in the guts of certain affected children. I don't know why the government wants to ignore this, but I would like to know. The Wakefield 'scandal' is so transparently a witch-hunt. What about the research into GMO done by people with a vested interest in it's products? If somebody has a valid point to make about the health of those affected children then I'd like to discuss it. But nobody has, because nobody knows, and nobody knows because the research has been pole-axed. We keep trying again and again to tell you why epidemiological research is no good here. The smoking-lung cancer analogy, etc etc etc.... What else can I say? If it pleases you to think that the mothers of those children are making it up in order to claim compensation, then go ahead - it's a free country. But then don't get so surprised when people post their opinion of your opinions!

Jimjams · 01/03/2004 10:48

Thanks twiglett and Droile and everyone I've missed. I'm stunned and actually very moved by how much you understand the emotions in this. Thank you.

Jimjams · 01/03/2004 10:56

To be honest the compensation thing is laughable. I am very interested in how my son became autistic. Because- I don't want to watch ds2 regress as well. I don't want to watch as he comes out with fewer and fewer words until suddenly he's not saying anything (not much chance of that he doesn't shut up). I don't want to watch him restrict his food until one day he's just eating bread and nothing else (from having eaten everything he's been given). I don't want to watch as the eye contact goes. I don't want to watch as he can no longer sit of grass and then can no longer stand on grass with his shoes on.

Is that a good enough reason? I've done that once. Or maybe I'm just jumping on the compensation bandwagon. (Just worked out that as we are now starting ABA at weekends, plus the nutritionist we are going to be paying about £480 a month purely on autism (75 quid of that is for speech therapy which should be proivided by the NHS- which the NHS therapist agrees- she just "hasn't got the resources".)

That's why its laughable- we're pouring money into autism- we're not making money. So why are we doing it? Becuase I want to give my son the best possible chance of being able to live an independent life- that's my biggest dream.

Compenstation culture my arse.

Clarinet60 · 01/03/2004 11:01

Quite jimjams. Even in clear cases of medical negligence, the compensation rarely benefits the parents. A uni friend of mine had her baby blinded at birth by a medical blunder. The figure she received (after 10 years of litigation) was below 500k but above 200k. It is all in a trust fund for her ds when he grows up. She won't see a penny of it. Not a penny. I'm crying now typing this, at the thought that after people see their precious children damaged, there are still people out there thinking such wicked things.

aloha · 01/03/2004 11:18

I just don't get this idea that having the jabs spaced out will be sooo dangerous. Unless you MMR at birth, then children are already 'at risk' until they get the MMR. Most people who go for single jabs get measles first, so that's the only 'deadly' disease dealt with (though as Jimjams says, the risks from measles have been wildly overstated in the push for MMR). Rubella and mumps are not dangerous for children - certainly no more so than, say, chickenpox. I do believe in childhood immunisation for rubella, personally, except in exceptional circumstances, as it has reduced the number of deafblind babies born - ie reduced it from the levels when it was only girls who were immunised - I talked to the charity Sense about this and was convinced by their argument. I would also happily vaccinate my ds against mumps, though it isn't dangerous for him but the gvmt won't let me. We've been waiting for the vaccine for over a year. I agree that the supposedly low levels of 'complete' courses of vaccination is mainly due to the gvmt blocking the importing of mumps vaccine. They don't want children vaccinated, they want them MMRd or nothing - so they can 'I told you so'.

Jimjams · 01/03/2004 12:33

Droile- that's awful.

There's a woman who lives locally to me and who set up a support group. I don't know her very well but my god friend does. Her dd's birth was very badly mismanaged (basically it was New Years Eve, the maternity unit was understaffed, her dd got into distress which was ignored- by the time she was born she had an AGPAR of 0, after 15 minutes of work on her, her AGPAR was 3). She has been left profoundly disabled. At 6 she can't raise her head, and cannot feed herself (is tube fed). This is due to a medical blunder- she should be a normal 6 year old. To date they have received no compensation and her birth notes have been "lost" (now what a surprise).

To add insult to injury the family get no respite from social services. Last year her dd had to be resuscitated. In the process some ribs were broken. The mother was no told, but found out when she read her dd's notes. She then asked why she hadn;t been told only to then be accused of breaking them herself. The paediatrician visited her bedside daily and said "is there something you want to tell me, something you may have remembered". He only backed off when she threatended him with action against him (this is ds1's paed by the way). Thank god she had the confidence to do that.

The problem with turning a blind eye to all of this, and saying "oh they just want compensation". "greedy mothers' "can't accept reality"- is that it can happen to anyone. One day you have a normal future ahead of you then one day you don't. What you find is that far from being caring and sharing, the medical profession regards you as a) a pain in the arse b) expensive c) just alittle dim.

Croak · 01/03/2004 13:32

These cases of how parents (usually mothers) are treated by doctors make me shiver. By the way, did anyone read Cristina Odone's Diary in the Observer yesterday. Apparently the "middle class media foghorned the tradgedy of middle-class families with autistic children" - oh, so only the bourgeois can be autistic then Christina.

Anyone with concerns over the gov's vaccination programme is similarly lampooned "Do the parents who opt out of inoculation think that they can steer their child through any ailment that afflicts him with the same ease with which they steer their Range Rover through the country lanes up to their weekend cottage" !? What on earth?

I find it so galling that columnists can take a subject affecting real peoples lives, about which they seem to have no knowledge (again Odone equates the lack of uptake of MMR with children being completely unvaccinated - no mention of rates of children being given single jabs) and use it to illustrate their own strange predjudices in a way which is supposed to entertain us on a Sunday morning.

Don't usually post much and especially not on controversial topics about which I'm, in comparison to you regulars, very unimformed but after reading all the intelligent points raised on here I needed a bit of rant after reading stuff like that in a paper that I've been a reader of for donkeys years.

aloha · 01/03/2004 13:42

I saw that too and felt v gloomy. What utterly stupid stereotyping. It's just childish stuff to basically invent a character yourself and then say everyone who doesn't give the MMR is like that - that's YOU that is.. She's supposed to be an intelligent woman.

Marina · 01/03/2004 13:47

This sounds rather like the same Cristina Odone who thinks that women who can't afford IVF should get over their childlessness and get on with their lives. I hope she's writing to an editorial agenda (shocked that her anti-MMR stuff appeared in The Observer) and doesn't believe the hateful rubbish she's producing.

katierocket · 01/03/2004 13:51

aloha - we are in same situation as you - DS has had measles and rubella singles but not mumps. Just wondered what you are going to do as it appears unlikely that single mumps will be available for a considerable time (if ever).

Jimjams · 01/03/2004 13:52

Oh croak thanks for pointing me in the direction of that. Absolutely laughable.

I seem to remember that in the 70's dyslexia was "middles class".

I wish actually that autism was confined to the wealthy classes as you so often have to buy in basic services. Unfortunately I know more people with autistic kids living on benefits than belonging to the chattering classes (who she accuses of turning "a blind eye to facts and figures" -Christina who's "research" seems to have taken all of 5 minutes).

And croak- thanks for your post- absolutely spot on!