Latest Wakefield MMR Scandal

[twiglett]

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there were several reasons. the first lot were delayed slightly as i moved house, second lot was she had been really ill over the winter months so was reluctant to let her have jabs when so poorly, the 3rd i put off as she was still being sick a fair bit, on and off and again didnt want to overload her system. but still dont think the Hib booster is now needed seeing she is older and her last jabs were done when she called for mmr but just told them she wasnt having that done, just the other jabs. didnt actually get any pressure which was shocked at and no-one has really pulled me up about it yet at the surgery. and they see us a lot.

thanks misdee, that's good to know. I am reading up on all sorts of things now and think i'll space them more with my second. Thanks

Paula (if she's still around) it's not surprising that you don;t know anyone whose child regressed after the MMR becuase it is a rare event. That is the whole point, that is why it isn't picked up on epidemiological studies. Being run over by a bus is also a rare event. i don;t know anyone whose child has been run over by a bus - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The questions you have to ask yourself is "is it OK to ignore those children and families whose lives have been destroyed (becuase believe me they have) or not". Well I say not. I know people whose children have regressed following MMR because I have an autistic child and am active in the autism community. If you watched "Hear the Silence" you will have seen a little boy on there who regressed dramatically following MMR (the one who was playing the boy doing ABA). His story really is harrowing. And no his mother isn't part of any legal campaign, and she's not seeking compensation.

Aloha MSBP has been a real problem wrt autism. Ennough for the NAS (who are pretty mainstream) to have a statement about it on their webiste. Did you see the Luke Jackson documentary? Lisa Blakemore-Brown was the Ed psych who was seen assessing Joe. She's also setting up a vaccination conference I'm going to in November. The 2nd day is all about autism and vaccination.

Didn;t see the Evening Standard btw- I'll look it up.

shouting "OH BUGGER OFF, PAULA!!!" might be construed as bullying.

Probably unecessary agreed but I'm afriad the phrase

"IMHO (and I know this will annoy some) the parents were looking for someone to blame for their childrens' autism. (Duck and wait for things to get thrown at me.)"

could be construed as rather strong provocation.

Especially when (as you know) a very good friend of mine watched her child disintegrate before her eyes in a matter of weeks following the MMR. That sounds meoldramatic but I don't know how else to explain watching your child go from normally devloping, communicating, pointing, talking, to mute, screaming and smearing shit on the walls within weeks. To hear from someone who has never met her, that she just wants someone to blame is a a little too much.

Bossykate, I'm surprised. I would have thought that the sentiments behind the previous exchanges were obvious. If I was the mother of an autistic child I would have put it much stronger than bugger off. The provocation was informed and deliberate and left me speechless. I think jimjams has infinite patience when you really stop to consider the shite that gets thrown at her. How many times has she had to painstakingly explain this mmr stuff again and again and again? It must be like p**sing Groundhog Day.

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lol Droile. We've had a bad couple of days - so my patience is currently shot to pieces. Luckily ds1 has a lovely lovely LSA and she's been so lovely this morning she almost had me in tears.

Anyway I think the best way to explain it is to use the bus analogy.

Imagine your child gets run over by a bus and left brain damaged. Before they were run over by a bus they were developing normally and were pointing, speaking, responding etc. Anyway you go an tell the doctors/govt/friends that your child was fine, but now they've been run over by a bus and they're brain damaged. But no-one believes you- everyone says that the bus couldn't possibly have done any damage, they've always been brain damaged you just hadn't noticed. When you complain you get told that its not brain damage its your parenting (and yes yes I was told when ds1 was 22 months that I was stopping him talking by talking over him). If you carry on complaining you get a MSBP charge levelled at you.

Can you imagine how frustrated and angry you would be if that happened to you?

I too think that comment was provoked and i really can't see why paula would be upset.
She was obviously looking for a reaction! Don't know why you would do that, wait for the upset replies and then moan about them!!!!

If you can't take the heat, stay away from the MMR debate threads. Or, if you have zippo knowledge, stay away from the MMR threads. You can't throw a handgranade of a remark in and not expect anyone to jump ffs.

Quite.
Good analogies - both hand grenade and bus.
Also, quite literally, adding insult to injury.
What a world this is.

Which is why I stay away from the MMR debates having neither knowledge nor heat resistance.

Jimjams, there is a follow up story covering the same ground in today's Mail. And in today's Standard, the former head of social services in Cornwall, Nigel Druce, is defending the decision to accuse parents of autistic children of MSBP (which I do not believe exists as a syndrome at all and I think it is disgraceful that someone like that still cites as medical fact when it was merely invented by Meadows). He says that Munchausen's isn't easy to 'diagnose' because, "It is not always that there is physical damage to the child by the parent, but their behaviour to the child can be damaging. They are far too protective of the child. They seek too much help and over-react when the child is ill".

Now, does anyone agree with me that this is one of the single most chilling things I have ever read in my life. So now you can be 'diagnosed' as having MSBP without even your child being hurt or ill? That merely loving your child is now enough for them to be snatched from you? That being 'over-protective' - whatever that means - and 'over-reacting' when your child is ill - whatever that means, is a sign of MSBP? Isn't that genuinely terrifying? I thought being protective of your child and alert to the possibility of illness was called being a mother. Isn't this just the most wicked misogyny? How many of us would fail this test? And what about all the mothers who are told by professionals that they are 'over-reacting' like my friend who took her baby daughter to hospital four times and was told there was nothing wrong with her only for the baby to be rushed in with rampant viral meningitis and be returned home profoundly and permanently deaf? Did she have MSBP? This wicked man has an OBE in 'social care'. It makes me sick.

"Shall I post this or delete it? Oh go ahead it has been a while since I was insulted and called stupid !" Well, she did ask for it?

Do you think this is the latest way the government is going to frighten people into giving the MMR? Stopping the vaccine coming in isn't working, telling us that our children will all die isn't working, so they'll try taking our kids away now?

`It's disgusting and revolting and horrifying Aloha. What is particularly chilling is that SW receive hours of training in MSBP (which like you I don't believe exists except in maybe extremely rare cases) and almost none in autism- which can look like the "diagnosis" checklist for MSBP.

This makes interesting reading.

Not quite the same but I know of an adult with severe autism who went to a day care centre each day and returned home in the evening- always collected by her mother. Her mother had an operation and couldn't collect her so her father went to pick her up. This was "wrong" in her eyes (change of routine) so she flipped. The SW decided that the father must be abusing her and removed her from the family home. It took months to sort out.

I know people who have been investiagted for MSBP. One because her son wasn't gaining weight- so she must have been starving him -eventually they dicovered he had chronic bowel disease.

I read about MSBP and think "there but for the grace of god go I" (except he doesn't exist but you know what I mean).

Dear god, I'm now surrounded by the red mists of anger, Aloha. That is unspeakable.

I know perfectly well that the staff at ds's nursery had me down as over-protective and downright mad because he cried a lot when I left him there and when I asked if he'd cried all day, one said, "well if you don't leave him with other people this is what happens' FFS!

Jimjams, that is truly frightening too.
Of course I believe some people hurt their children for a variety of reasons - frustration, anger, mental illness - but I don't believe this 'theory' that there are tens of thousands of us who, in very subtle and undetectable ways, are doing vile things to our children in order to spend more time with doctors.

I have heard that in the US children are not allowed to attend school unless they have had MMR. Does anyone know if this is true?

Quite a few countries are like that stinky, although usually there are ways round it. for example France will accept homeopathic vaccination and in the States you can apply for a religious or philosophical objection (depending on which State you live in this can be hard or easy to obtain). I always remember in a heated discussion about me not having vaccinated ds2 that I wouldn;t be able to put him in ski school or childcare in the states. which rather missed the point- with an autistic brother ski school something that happens to other families.

Talking of false accusations. When DS1 was 3 I was told that I was "imagining" that he was trying to speak, and that I was "kidding" myself if I thought he was. (from a speech therapist). I'm sorry the arogance of the woman! I spent 24 hours a day with him - she had spent 10 minutes. She also told me he "isn;t trying to communicate at all in any way". 5 minutes later he went up to her and helpd up his hands- in the universal "pick me up" geture- and she blanked him. 5 minutes after that he grabbed her watch- made eye contact and said "an"- his word for watch- and again she blanked him. His speech disorder was eventaully diagnosed but a year later than it could of been. The frightening thing was when I had a stand up row with her in case conference over whether he was trying to talk or not- everyone believed her. truly terrifying, as she was completely wrong. OK we got the diagnosis in the end but that was still enough for the school he attends now- 2 years later to be warned that I am "well known for being in denial". FFS. And the professionals wonder why we have no respect for them at all.

I remember you telling us that and I was staggered. It's hard to imagine anyone LESS in denial about their child's autism. why is it, do you think, that when you move in people's eyes from being a woman to being a mother you become a subhuman in so many people's eyes?

Very strange I agree. I'm better qualified than most of the professionals I meet and yet they talk to me as if I am an idiot. It must be very hard if you haven't got the confidence to deal with them.

And why do experts 'know' more about your child when you are with them 24/7? FFS, must be very frustrating.

Dd had the MMR but as I couldn't afford singles and I didn't want to put her at risk of catching anything, I felt I didn't have any choice in the matter. Feel good that I have made the decision now, and do not feel a bad mother for making it, but why should we have this agony? Offer the singles to parents. And the more muck they throw at Wakefield on tenuous links of conflicts of interest, the more people will start thinking that he must be onto something if they think he is so 'dangerous'.