Why I No Longer Feel Comfortable Wearing a Poppy

[Geckos48]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/madeleine-fry/poppy-day_b_4169581.html

very eloquently put. Exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

November 11th should be for those who selflessly gave their lives in the World Wars, not those who chose to fight dubious campaigns abroad.

Pan Sat 02-Nov-13 08:50:39

Well, flat, I was merely indicating that because we have evidence that some people had armed conflicts of various types doesn't mean that it's a natural thing whatsoever.

Mmm, but you weren't, were you, as the tone of your post made clear. Violence was endemic amongst prehistoric societies. It's been endemic in every society. Just because we sit around in a society that's largely free of violence because we're all so rich and don't need to fight, doesn't mean it isn't lurking under the surface. Every society has fought.

I'd also go on to restate that progress for us as a race is massively impeded by fighting and killing and we are a social animal where we develop by co-operation and partnership.

I don't think it is. We would never have landed people on the moon without the Cold War, for example. It's no co-incidence that the only people pushing humanity to the stars now are billionaires, rather than government space agencies. Sometimes it holds humanity back, sometimes it pushes it forward.

Geckos48

I do not believe in 'fighting for peace' I do not believe our armed forces defend us, I think they defend the relentless evil of Capitalism and in doing so keep at least 2/3rds of the world on poverty, ill health and war.

Ever been to a Communist country? Lived in one? Talked to anyone who lived in one?

Of course you haven't. The more you write, the more you seem like a caricature.

You could say I consider it my 'duty' to give the other side of the story, talk about peace as a process available to us and do whatever I can to make the world a better place. I dont think people in the armed forces do that. I think they are part of a bloody big evil machine that ruins lives on grand scales.

Communism is a big evil machine that ruins lives on grand scales, and you are a 'useful idiot' who supports the most evil, brutal system of government that has ever existed.

If it were about 'remembering the dead' then that would be fine, but it IS political because we separate the dead from the armed dead. Thats a pretty Roman ideal to me, its all about glorifying war, making it 'worthwhile' on an emotional level and I absolutely do not agree with it.

What is all this bollocks about Roman ideals?

Speak for yourself Geckos, I remember all the dead in the wars regardless of whether they were armed or not.
I have been a bit mystified about all the references to Romans.

I dont think the UN need to police by sending troops, its about focusing on the people responsible at the top, rather than sending men in to fight other men on their behalf.

The UN should be, ideally, a group of nations that judge the actions of people and decide appropriate punishment.

Yes I have travelled around a communist country (China) and i was NOT talking about that sort of Communism, I am talking about Marxism and I absolutely think it can and would work.

The fact is that for us to live the way we do in our throw-away Western culture, many people around the world have to live in abject poverty and to keep them there, we have to keep fighting wars when nations get too big or too advanced for our liking.

We don't need to keep 'conquering' we need to allow people to live in a far more comfortable way than they currently do. That more than anything will stop terrorist and threats of invasion.

The UN should be, ideally, a group of nations that judge the actions of people and decide appropriate punishment.

Right, "Do the right thing or we come and force you to with really big guns!"

What does 'about focusing on the people responsible at the top' mean?

Assassination?

Or sending them hallmark cards about peace on earth?

Can you think of a specific thing you can DO to make that work?

But when the UN have decided upon an appropriate punishment, how do they then exact it?
As I understand, Assad has relinquished his chemical weapons, but what if he had refused?

And also Communism is the natural extension on Marxist ideals, this has been proven TIME AND TIME again in many cultures, across many eras.
Open your eyes to the realities of the world OP, you cannot just deny them to fit in with your beliefs.

As an earlier poster mentioned, you sound like an ill informed idealistic teenager, but at least a teenager would have recently studied some history.

Just because I do not respect people who have chosen to join the armed forces and have gone abroad and died, does not mean I am not angry with our governments of the past and the way they have dealt with things.

I am Completely anti-war, those who make it AND those who choose to fight it.

Communism (as we know it) is not an extension of Marx ideas (All which are available to read online if you want to)

If a country refuses concede to the 'appropriate punishment' Gecko, how does the UN react?

I dont think we need to speak about 'countries' we need to speak about individuals that make lots of money selling nasty guns and weapons to each other.

How would you feel if we were bombed because our country sold the Sarin that killed all those people in Syria?

When you bring it back to being about us, it just doesn't make sense.

Please address the question I put to you Gecko

I did.

Gecko, it might be worth remembering that it is due to those "people who have chosen to join the armed forces and have gone abroad and died" that you have the freedom to spout this nonsense express your views and live the life you do today. Do you really not respect them?

Geckos48

Yes I have travelled around a communist country (China)

Oh, bless. You hiked for 3 weeks around Szechuan and now you're Chairman Mao.

and i was NOT talking about that sort of Communism, I am talking about Marxism and I absolutely think it can and would work.

IT CAN'T WORK. HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES??

It can't work because the lovely wuvvly snuggly wuggly marxism which you imagine will work TURNS IN to the evil murdery communism EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You're so bloody naive. What makes you think you can make it work any better? There's a trail of failed states on every continent thanks to Marxism. There's Zimbabwe, where Marxist Mugabe tried giving farming land to people who couldn't far and created famine and hyperinflation. There's Venezuela, where there are shortages in all the shops because the government can't run the economy better than people can. Do I need to remind you of the famines created by Mao and Stalin?

At what point do naifs like you accept that Marxism is a disastrous failure and grow up?

The fact is that for us to live the way we do in our throw-away Western culture, many people around the world have to live in abject poverty and to keep them there, we have to keep fighting wars when nations get too big or too advanced for our liking.

That isn't a fact. The fact is that communist nations only get rich enough to escape abject poverty when they embrace capitalism. As a consequence of embracing capitalism, a middle class appears which creates a counter to the existing feudal power structure (created by Communism) and leads to liberty and democracy. It's only through independent wealth creation that you get better lives.

For goodness sake, the people who go abroad and fight wars do so for careers and for a disturbing sense of 'duty' but they certainly do not go abroad to 'protect my freedom of speech' its just propaganda that is trotted out and nothing else.

flat I am just going to ignore your post because it makes a lot of assumptions about me and is quite aggressive and rude.

Geckos48

flat I am just going to ignore your post because it makes a lot of assumptions about me and is quite aggressive and rude. you have seen right through my shallow thought processes and I have absolutely no answer to the points you have made.

FTFY

How much freedom of speech do you think you would have today if we hadn't have fought wars in the past? How much freedom of speech do Zimbabweans have, if they don't agree with Mugabe?
If you expressed any views (let alone some of what you've put on here) in many countries of the world, you'd have been carted away before you'd even pressed 'enter.'

And here we have you, again, choosing to ignore people (e.g. flat )who've spent time refuting some of your wild assertions.

If that is what you want to believe, I think I have shown quite consistently that I am happy to discuss my points with anyone and everyone but I think your head might explode if you carry on and you are not coming across well.

I would just go and have a cup of tea or something if I were you.

I believe that you're ignoring flats post because it makes too much sense, can't be manipulated to fit your own views, and is written eloquently.

You did not answer the question I posed.
How will the UN react when a country, govt. or premier does not acquiesce to the the punishments proposed?

Wearing a poppy is a political statement. If you don't think that, try wearing one in republican areas of Northern Ireland or other parts of the island of Ireland, or some parts of mainland Britain, whatever the ethnic background of the people who live there.

It's a political statement I'm happy to make - just not in those areas - and it stands for other things that I support too. But it's naive to think it's not political.

You didnt say that, you said 'countries' and nothing else. I said we need to stop looking at things as 'countries' because actually the majority of people in those countries have absolutely nothing to do with the issues created.

Thats my point, we need a diplomatic way of dealing with those people, rather than using warfare and wasting lives.

The biggest part of that is to sort out world trade, as things are improving economically, the threat goes down both on a national level and on a world level.

And flats last post was far from 'eloquent' it was full of assumptions and insults, which is why I am not going to discuss it with her. What would be the point?

It is only political if they choose to make it so. I am not wearing it for political reasons but I see no need to justify my choice.

All a matter of opinion, I find flats very eloquent, and luckily we have the freedom to have an opinion.

If it wasn't political, it would be about all people who had died

more so, it would be about police officers, firefighters and paramedics who had died working.

Not just the armed forces. Saying it is just the armed forces Of Course makes it political.

Having to resort to insults and aggression is the very opposite of eloquence, perhaps its an issue comprehending the English language that people are having but eloquence does not go hand in hand with sharing an opinion. I've met plenty of eloquent people who both share and dont share my opinion.

Geckos48

And flats last post was far from 'eloquent' it was full of assumptions and insults, which is why I am not going to discuss it with her. What would be the point?

Since I don't see how you can make yourself look any more ridiculous than you already have done, you are right, there isn't a point. You keep believing in the Tooth Fairy and Marxism.