Rolf Harris has been charged

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Can't link as on phone but just got a news flash saying he's been charged with 9 counts of indecent assault, and 4 to do with indecent images.

I am glad if thats the word that there are cases of indecency as recent as last year. There seems to be a common theme of 'Oh what where we like back in the olden days' wrt these men and the abuses they committed. This proves that it was not a sign of the times as a lot of media reporting would try to push us to believe but that it is a attributable to the person and not the decade

What I'm about to say is a general comment not about RH

The thing is, it is so hard to know from one prosecution whether it is a pattern of offending or a one off. Victims of sexual assault often (very often) do not report what happened to the police and the CPS rarely prosecute, usually because of a (perceived) lack of evidence/chance of conviction. The facts are that many (most?) sex offenders will have a long history of offending and if convicted it is likely to be the tip of a very large iceberg.

I also wanted to say to all the people who are shocked because people like RH seem nice - (and again this is a general observation, I am not implying guilt) - this is what most sex offenders are like. They look just like any 'normal' member of society and the sooner we realise this the sooner we will stop disbelieving and blaming victims.

I think the thing is, if you are of a certain age, you were brought up with these people - on the telly while you were safely eating a chocolate biscuit, nice blokes doing entertaining things (I personally except JS from this).

So its as if the picture you saw 'may' not have been real (ie if they have/have not been convicted) and that causes you to question what you believed in as a child. Which in turn asks you to question everything else you may have seen/been subjected to as a teen/young adult, if that makes sense?

I used to love RH when I was a little girl, loved him later on AH. so if he is guilty, that puts my previous experiences and understanding in question to me.

However, that makes no apology for the 'oh they just took advantage of what was available' or 'it was different then' or 'we always knew he was a groper' brigade. Of which my DM is a prime example - NSIT anyone??

I think back in the day it was just easier for sleazy people to take advantage of young girls/boys; no one believed them. Now we believe them more, but we still have difficulty in believing that this or that trusted figure (TV personality, celeb, swimming instructor etc) could actually have been the sleazy one.

I understand that boschy, but all that does is make me feel even more sorry for victims of men like these. How must they feel knowing what happened to them, yet all the world thinks they're heroes?

My head can't comprehend what that must feel like.

absolutely georgedawes, and you are right - I was posting from the point of view of the happy, priviliged child I guess. I cant imagine what it must be like to have been abused by the person 'everyone' thought was a diamond... or indeed by anyone else. (dealt with a few sleazebags in my teens/early 20s, but that's different - I was equipped to deal with them).

so I apologise if I seemed to be minimising the effects on those affected, I really really wasnt, and if you (generic) have been abused by anyone, then I BELIEVE YOU.

NSIT= Not Safe In Taxis.

according to my DM, now aged 83, this is what you used to tell your friends about those who would take it too far. I cannot talk to her about JS etc, even when I say "but you have a 14 y old GD, imagine if she met one her favourite boy band members and went backstage..." she just thinks it was down to the girls to avoid the baddies.

no fucking idea!

I do understand, I wasn't having a go - just thought it was a point worth making because normally these issues are so hidden, whether it's because of shame or feeling people won't be believed etc.

Someone close to me was raped by a upstanding, charming, good looking etc man. It went to court and he was found not guilty, so in the eyes of the law it didn't happen. I have so much respect for the people who have had the courage to report cases of historical abuse, I'm afraid I wouldn't.

george, I think we are on the same page. I hope your friend is ok. I think I might have the courage to report, but that is only because I am a fucking stroppy mare! and if I knew anyone in that situation, then I would give them every support I possibly could, even if that menat they didnt report, which is contentious in itself.

I don't want to derail the thread, but until you've seen what the criminal justice system does to rape victims in court then it's easy to say you'd report an assault. I used to say that too :( And in any case, it is up to the CPS to decide whether or not to prosecute - the majority of 'allegations' are not taken to court, so either most women are making these up or a lot of men are getting away with it.

Anyway, I find this too upsetting to talk about so sorry but might have to step away from the thread.

sorry george I really didnt mean to upset you. take care xxx

george was going to PM you, but am too thick to work out how and have to go out in a minute. again, my really sincere apologies, I wouldnt upset anyone for the world if I could avoid it. please pm me if you would like me to apologise again xxx

You don't need to apologise, really! I'm not the victim but I suppose it is a defence thing not wanting to talk about it. It has affected me a lot and it didn't even happen to me. I just wanted to make the case that we need to think about victims more, and start realising that the men that do these sorts of things come from all walks of life, some are "good guys", that's one of the reasons they are able to get away with it.

I'm not going to apologise for what I sad as it was heartfelt and genuine and not an attempt to excuse him.

Can people not distinguish between excusing someone, ie making excuses for them, and WANTING TO BE ABLE, legitimately, to find a way to continue to see them in the same light as ever?

Wanting it to be a mistake as opposed to stating that it is definitely a mistake and you will never, ever believe it?

If someone told you that maybe your closest friend, or you know, someone you really rate, is actually a closet paedophile - would you not be saying 'really? I can't believe it...surely there may have been some mistake? Could it be an error, could it be such and such..?'

There's a major difference there. I am ready and willing to believe whatever the court decides. I am not going to stand between a sex offender and just retribution.

However I retain the right to be shocked, to be saddened and to be looking at ways in which I might be able to maintain my previous opinion of the person. This is completely normal and that's why so many of us are doing it.

If he is found to have done these things I shall be as horrified and disgusted as anyone. I'm not going to be sitting here saying 'Oh poor bloke, he can't have meant it, maybe he was just misguided'. I will be feeling sorry for the people it happened to.

But initially on hearing news that seems anachronistic at the very least it is normal to want to find a way around it, IF THERE IS one.

I hope that helps a bit.

In fact I am already sympathising with any possible victims without having the slightest clue what really went on.

There were very few people trying against the odds/popular opinion to maintain their existing impression on the JS threads...simply because a lot of people already couldn't stand the bloke. It didn't seem out of place.

Whether you like it or not Rooners, that's one of the reasons so many sex offenders are found not guilty in court. The jury is full of people who think "someone like that wouldn't do that, there must be something else going on" and it only takes a 'good' defence lawyer to pour scorn on the victim therefore playing straight into the doubts already there in the jury's mind. Your view is certainly prevalent, no doubt about it.

I'm out of here anyway, hiding the thread now.

Before you go I hope you saw my draining rack recommendation on the worktop thread.

My view on what btw?

Because I don't have a view on whether or not he is guilty.

However I retain the right to be shocked, to be saddened and to be looking at ways in which I might be able to maintain my previous opinion of the person. This is completely normal and that's why so many of us are doing it.

^Can people not distinguish between excusing someone, ie making excuses for them, and WANTING TO BE ABLE, legitimately, to find a way to continue to see them in the same light as ever?

Wanting it to be a mistake as opposed to stating that it is definitely a mistake and you will never, ever believe it?

If someone told you that maybe your closest friend, or you know, someone you really rate, is actually a closet paedophile - would you not be saying 'really? I can't believe it...surely there may have been some mistake? Could it be an error, could it be such and such..?'^

He's a man you've seen on the telly, not your closest friend.

The last para in particular is how defence barristers portray men accused of sexual assault in court. A fine, upstanding member of the community; everyman. And people in the jury are made up of people like you and others on this thread, who want to be believe there has been some mistake or an error, or whatever excuse you can think of. It's easy to see why the conviction rate is so low isn't it?

Rooners you should take heed of what GD is saying

Your views on this thread are pedestrian at best and abuse-apologist at worst

Your line of reasoning is why so many abusive individuals slip through the net, and so many victims do not get believed

Thankfully, you are not currently on a peer-judged jury

I say this with kindness and not to upset you. You and I have chatted and I have no beef with you at all. But please, have a really good think about the message behind your careless words. Yes, they are echoed all up and down this country. It doesn't make them right though.

george I hope you are ok. You are not on your own x

Really don't know why my post was deleted. All I said was that people annoy me going on about how sad they are. Not about the (alleged) victim but about the fact they liked the suspect. Makes me bloody cross.

Whoa! It isn't a competition here! Lots of people are at varying stages of understanding the implications of what's actually going on around them - jumping on people, calling them 'apologists', is just unnecessary imo. It's quite legitimate for posters to express quite a at the turn of events, and do a bit of struggling without the associated condemnations of others as not being quite 'up to speed'.

Thanks AF. I shouldn't get so upset (and no one individual on this thread has particularly offended/upset me), I just find the whole attitude to sex offences in this country depressing as hell. I have other reasons I can't go into, but suffice to say my (slightly immature) way of coping is to shut off from it all. This kind of view is really, really common..a lot of my friends and family feel the same. I just wish it would change, how on earth can the conviction rate for these kind of offences ever change?

The problem lies as much with society as it does with the people who commit these crimes. We are the ones who find them not guilty, who doubt, who victim blame, who minimise, who look for reasons why.

Pan as you know, when attitudes go unchallenged, then nothing will change

I've done my own fair share of being pulled "up to speed" and very glad of it I was (although it stung a bit at the time)

Don't try to make me out the Bad Guy here, we all know who the Bad Guys are