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Dr. Wakefiled and the MMR study

222 replies

Uwila · 12/06/2006 09:50

"If found guilty, Mr Wakefield could be struck off the medical register."

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5070670.stm\MMR Doc to face charges}

Discuss, please.....

OP posts:
Socci · 24/06/2006 21:35

Message withdrawn

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 24/06/2006 21:36

He never reads the end of threads, I've picked him up about arguing the wrong point before (ie no-one is remotely suggesting that MMR causes all autism only a small minority). He didn't answer then either.

Had a lovely holiday thanks zippi. When I have the energy I'll recommmend it on a thread somewhere.

expatinscotland · 24/06/2006 21:43

DC is L Ron Hubbard, re-incarnated.

Socci · 24/06/2006 21:44

Message withdrawn

plummymummy · 24/06/2006 21:56

Yeah well I suspected a troll in the past but I now think he has a grandiose personality disorder. In his own little world he is God.

plummymummy · 24/06/2006 22:30

He just said on another thread (about nuclear power)that he is "rarely wrong". Can't type now as spluttering too much.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 24/06/2006 22:38

oh no I didn't socci, I'm read only on aut -uk at the moment. Do you have a copy you could forward me (no worries if not I'll read it online).

mrsnoah · 24/06/2006 22:38

hi, I am tiptoeing onto this thread a little nervous as everyone seems very knowledgable about the vaccines in the UK.
I would like opinions please.
My Ds has had both the first 2 jabs inc the new Men C one. About to have 3rd.
With each one he has been really off colour and grotty for about a week after. I mentioned this to my HV who rubbished this.
In contrast, my Mother is horrified at the amount they are given in one dose these days.

Both my dd's who are now 7 & 9 didnt appear to have as much discomfort with them.
I had allergic reactions to my 12 week jabs.. believed in those days to have been the Whooping cough vaccine that caused this in many babies then.
I also had swelling from Tetanus jab 10 yrs ago.
Both DDs have allergies to Penicillin and Dairy (not egg)

Am now feeling little anxious about Ds'imminent 3rd jab (not to mention MMR).

Would appreciate your thoughts.

koalabear · 24/06/2006 23:04

mrsnoah - you need to do your own research and make your own decisions - on mumsnet (and elsewhere for that matter) for every piece of advice supporting vacinations, you will get an opposing view

my own view, after reading and researching as much as i could, was that the risk of NOT having the vacine was much higher than actually having the vacine, and on that basis, we made our decision

good luck to you

funnybones · 24/06/2006 23:10

have read all these posts as trying to decide whether or not to vacinate ds with the singles or mmr. how on earth do yuou decide with all the conflicting evidence? is the single measles jab safe?

koalabear · 24/06/2006 23:17

funny bones - please see my earlier comment about this being a very personal decision

however, to answer your question, the research we did (and i do research for a living, so i hope that it was fairly thorough) brought up two main points in relation to your question:

  1. the part of the MMR which may cause a concern was the "measles" part (that is, amonst other things, inflamation of the brain) - as such, my thinking was that there was not much difference between receiving it in the MMR or receiving it as a single jab - the question then becomes "do you want to vacinate against measles or not?" rather than "do you want to do the MMR or a single jab?" - make sense?

  2. Japan stopped giving the MMR jab quite some time ago - the autism rate there has climbed at the same or greater percentage than countries which continue to use the MMR

funnybones · 24/06/2006 23:27

thanks koala thats what is going through my head now - whether to vaccinate for measles at all!
then i think what if ds contracts it - god its hard being a mum making these decisions isnt it

koalabear · 24/06/2006 23:29

yes, it certainly is harder than i thought it was going to be

but i wouldn't change it

except maybe some mornings at 4 am

koalabear · 24/06/2006 23:32

it seems that there are some thoughts on this thread that suggest that there may be some "pre indicators" which may hightlight those children who should not be vacinated - perhaps that is worth considering

mrsnoah · 24/06/2006 23:40

koala, my concerns at the moment, more specifically,would be the concept of overloading their systems..
DD1 grew up around friends who were very much involved with the initial investigations into the MMR with their son.
Think it makes you pretty nervous when you see these situations first hand.
I am anxious about the short term results of these new vaccines. Has anyone else noticed their baby unwell after them for more than 24 hrs?

mrsnoah · 24/06/2006 23:41

pre indicators ?

koalabear · 25/06/2006 02:34

mrs noah - i think you should always listen to your instincts - you clearly have concerns based on your own observations of yours and other children

DominiConnor · 25/06/2006 06:19

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads, could you clarify what you mean ?
What is the difference between "triggered" and "caused" ?
Where do you get your idea of 7% from ?

Note that Lathe is not a medical doctor, and is best known for his views of the effect of lunar gravity on the origin of life, not on medicine.
But he may be right.
Does he present any evidence ?

I did some reading up on him, hence the delay whilst I replied to this thread. I don't finish all threads true, but mostly when they get boring. That's the way all threads on all online chat systems fade out, but you knew that didn't you ?
Just a dig because you find it hard to accept that you were duped by poeple in the media ?

Pruni · 25/06/2006 08:13

Message withdrawn

zippitippitoes · 25/06/2006 09:43

dc triggered: an individual has a latent genetic potential for devloping diabetes, autism, schizophrenia,Parkinson's disease etc

environmentaL factors in life then decide when or whether that individual then manifests one of these conditions eg marijuana being complicit in schizophrenia developing in those with latent ptoential...

cause: development where no latent potential only environmental factors eg thalidomide

tamum · 25/06/2006 10:33

Rick Lathe is NOT "best known for his views of the effect of lunar gravity on the origin of life" unless your science education comes entirely from reading New Scientist. He is a molecular biologist with a PhD and oodles of papers in mainstream peer-reviewed journals.

Socci · 25/06/2006 10:45

Message withdrawn

expatinscotland · 25/06/2006 10:47

'Note that Lathe is not a medical doctor'

I've met more medical doctors than not who are utter idiots.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 25/06/2006 13:38

The 7% (ish) derives from several sources- Richard Lathe quoted the 7%- although he didn't go into much detail about the MMR as he's more interested in what is behind the big rise on autism. He spends the first chater or so explaining why the big rise is real by the way. One big source on the 7% I am going to remain tight liped on because they are trying to get publication in a peer reveiwed journal at the moment. However suffice it to say that these 7% have different physiological markers to other autistic children/adults as well.They also have a very particular history- severe and rapid regression following MMR accompanied by very serious bowel problems. My friend's little boy is fairly typical. Noraml development, MMR, massive seizures within a day or so, hospitalised in intensive care (the hospital thought he was going to die), recovery but left severely autistic. A very different regression to the one my son went through, and no doubt they belong to different autistic subgroups.

As for Richard Lathe- Tamum knows far more about him than me, so I will let her message speak for itself. He is well known for developing a rabies vaccine which I believe is the most widely used, so I doubt he is anti-vaccinaiton. In fact in his book he says that vaccination (in general) may be a way of avoiding autism being triggered in suscpeptible children by reducing the risk of encephalitis. That doesn't stop him recognising that MMR may still unfortunately damage a few children. I guess DC you just doon't care about that because it's stupid women (mothers) who have reported the link, and anyway your child isn't involved so who gives a stuff eh?

By triggered I mean triggered. It is failry well accepted that autism has a strong genetic component, but variation (autistic vs NT for example) can have a genetic and environmental component. So a child can be born with a genetic predispostion and autism then triggered by exposure to something, whether that something is a chemical, or virus, or heavy metal. The trigger may of course be antenatally. This is not particularly contentious btw. You are making the huge mistake of assuming that autism is one condition with one cause, I think every researcher into autism in the world knows that that is untrue. The type of autism involving regression appears to be related to a family history of autoimmune conditions. That's obviously simplistic, but broadly true. For an overview of the various subtybes you can eithyer spend a month trawling through the internet (try Waring Birmingham for sulphation problems, Megson retinol, for vitamin A processing problems etc that'll get you started) or you could read autism the brain and the environment.

DC I don't know what you mean by duped by people in the media. My son is severely autistic- the one
possible trigger we know didn't play a role in his case was the MMR. We have a fairly good idea of what happened in his case, but I'm not about to go into that here because I don't for one moment think you are interested, and anyway talking about how my son reached the state he is in is something I only do with people who care and who have some vague comprehension of what a tragedy severe autism is.

I don't think you understand anything at all about autism actually, so I suggest you do more reading if you want to argue further.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 25/06/2006 13:44

Japan gives the MMR. It reintroduced the monovalent jabs after a bath of children developed meningitis from the mumps component (not debatable- it was a problem associated with one particular strain), parents voted with their feet, refused vaccination and so the monovalents were reintroduced. My friend living in Japan said that you are offered a choice though and that most go for MMR.

The argument is completely irrelevent to this discussion anyway. if MMR is triggering 7% of cases- which is the figure that people who do think there is a link are quoting then removing MMR for a few years is going to make bugger all different to the numbers.

What is behind the rise in autism is a whole different matter, and for the most up to date thorough answer curently available I'd suggest buying richard lathe's book. I'm not about to go through it all here.