Dr. Wakefiled and the MMR study

[Uwila]

"If found guilty, Mr Wakefield could be struck off the medical register."

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5070670.stm\MMR Doc to face charges}

Discuss, please.....

DC, if you really are a right-brained male, you would realise there just hasn't been enough time for anyone to draw any conclusion about MMR take-up falling while prevalence of autism is increasing. It's only been five minutes, in statistical terms. You'd need a much longer period to make that observation. And you'd need some grounds for suspicion that it was even correlated, let alone causal. Plus the official figures don't count children who had sep vax.

I think you are a frustrated tabloid newspaper columnist who just enjoys firing off half-baked opinions while pretending there is some kind of logic behind them. And slagging off women. Except on Cormac Murphy O'Connor, you are dead right there. But it's not exactly a tricky one to call.

Gabriel Byrne is actually remotely attractive to some, however . . .

zippitippitoes is bang on the money again.
Yes men deceise women with astrology, homeopathy, creationism and religion. Some have got quite rich and enjoy social status for being particularly good liars.
Not sure whether this makes men or women look worse though ?

I accept there may be long term effects of MMR. But that's honest ignorance, we don't know because we can't.
I'm not a misogynist. I treat women much the same as men, whislt I accept most men don't. They are more polite to women and don't critise dumb ideas in the same way they would with other men. I think that's patronising. Note that I refer to the men in that post as "weak". My feeling is that more men would prefer to be labelled as ignorant than weak. so I'm hardly expressing male supremicist ideas.

You are rather given to generalising about men and women and suggesting us females are fluffy-headed, though, DC. As for men being reluctant to criticise women's ideas, hello? Since when? Men - as a generalisation - are bloody reluctant to listen to women's ideas in the first place. There are just as many stupid men as stupid women - but the men are less likely to admit it!

Your criticism of men may be valid. Men absorb information in different ways.

As for generalising, I plead in mitigation that it's true that on average women are more likely to fall into believing homeopathy, astrology et al.

DC

You're discussing the wrong argument. No-one, no-one no-one, not Wakefield, not Shattock, not me, not anyone is saying that MMR is responsible for the rise in autism cases. They are saying that a small subset of children are have had autism triggered by the MMR. Maybe 7% of cases of autism, maybe 10%, 20% absolute tops.

As long as your child isn't affected I don't suppose it matters.

You're not alone in that view.

homemama- the vaccine was being developed as a potential treatment for autistic enterocolitis (which incidentally no-one has disputed the existence of, would be nice to know what's causing it, whether MMR or not, and even better to develop a treatment, it's bloody painful. You can read the patent application on the charming Brian Deer's webiste.

Incidentally you should read Richard lathes's newly published book - autism the brain and the environment. He's male, he developed a vaccine himself (for rabies), he's a scientist, and he believes that its sensible to say that 7% of autistic children regressed following MMR. Suggest you take your argument up with him if women are too stupid.

'As for generalising, I plead in mitigation that it's true that on average women are more likely to fall into believing homeopathy, astrology et al. ' research re forer statements does suggest that BUT so what? Don't most autistic kids have a male parent as well?

Jimjams, have you got any links on autistic enterocolitis? DS1 and DS3, (and me) have had a digestive disorder, i was wondering iof there were any symptoms in common just out of interest

Oh and not all men and women absorb infor dufferently, I for one am a practical learner, like many men (and some other women). Learning styles vary, not necessairly according to gender either. Unless things have changed since I did this in Psychology (2 montths ago) there isn't a deifinitive right / left handed brain for females or males either, just tendencies

just looked it up in Wilkipaedia and as far as I can tell without testing, the visible symptoms mimic ours

intriguing.......

and yes it BLOODY hurts, Jimjams is right

I'd google it PC-Simon Murch still works on it over here- he's moved from the Royal Free now though, is in Warwick or somewhere like that. Diagnosis afaik involves a scope though.
What sort of gut disorder do you have, the ARU test for the presence of IAG in the urine - which can indicate leaky gut. That's what ds1 has, and ds3. Cases of autistic enterocolitis have a different urinary profile (lower relative IAG).
I know that its common for consultants working with say Crohns to have quite a good understanding (and acceptance) of the whole autism/gut/MMR thing nowadays. So it might be worth asking around.

Other than Murch there's Tettenborn in??Surrey, he may be a paed, but is big on the gut/yeast/autism connection.

TBH the autism/gut thing is pretty well accepted now by most autism specialists (by which I mean specialist, not generalist developmental paed), so would be worth seeking out someone. I have heard good things about Murch, he'll x-ray etc looking for bowel obstruction even if the symptoms aren't screamingly obvious (and often he finds it and treats easily- used to be with praffin oil, think its a bit more hi-tech these days).

No accurate measles stats to back up your assertion that it is serious and life threatening and a well nourished and affluent western population DC?

You do surprise me.

Autistic enterocolitis is a quite specific condition PC (which is why it requires a scope- and if you were thinking along those lines I'd really only see Murch- unless you can pay to go to the States and wee Wakefield(!!)-) but other painful bowel conditions are common in autism as well.

We started ds1 on saccromyces- seems a common starting treatment, and helps most, without risking unpleasant side effects, I'd try that whilst waiting to see someone anyway.

quick hijack [jimjams, ds has splinter, tiny but pus and red around it, should i be panicking?]

simon murch's details

The only stuff I could see that would be non tested related to food intolerances and unexplained IBS like symptoms that didn't respond to traditional remedies. We definitely all have that (not ds2 and DH though, the only completely NON As people in this household). Whilst I doubt we have anything like autistic enterocolitis, makes you wonr (well me anyway) if there is a link.

Hmmmmmm.

about what sophable? - You need to get it out, practice nurse should be able to do that.....

I'll have a look at someof those papers JimJams, thanks.

i was thinking of your splinter panic re being unvaccinated....no tetanus

PC- the link between the gut and autism is pretty well accepted now. The role of MMR in causing gut problems that lead to regression in a subgroup is contentious, but that autistic children commonly (not always, but very commonly) have gut problems isn't really debated any more, it's accepted. Autistic enterocolitis is a specific problem, found so far in children whose parents report regression following MMR (and in fact whose medical records often do as well, and whose paediatricians are often willing to accept as havingt had bad reactions to the MMR as well, but never mnind they are a tiny minority of children in the population so of little interest). But wider gut problems are common.

If you google autism one, then look at 2006 presentations Wakefield's latest talk is there to download (the PP presentation anyway). He summarises some of the different routes to gut problems etc.

What's a splinter from? We've just spent a week on farmland, so have been obsessively checking ds3 for splinters each night My mum and dad then pointed out that they both lived on farms as children and didn't receieve tetanus jabs until they were adults. The splinter thing was written by Neudstaedter, he has a website, you could email him and ask him more about the tetanus from splinter case he treated.

Oi- jimjams! Please will you do my questionnaire ? Will be forever grateful, natch.

jimjams..i hope you had a great holiday..for goodness sake you probably need another to recover..start charging or write a book!

DC I'm starting to wonder if in fact you are sane.