Dr. Wakefiled and the MMR study

[Uwila]

"If found guilty, Mr Wakefield could be struck off the medical register."

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5070670.stm\MMR Doc to face charges}

Discuss, please.....

As this thread testifies, obtaining a totally objective opinion on the MMR debate is more or else impossible. My brother who is in his 40s (no mmr) and my 10yo nephew (had mmr jab)have autism. Why? Probably genetic. In fact, my mother knew my nephew was afflicted when he was 6mo. My twin 2yo sons had the MMR jab when they were 13mo and they are developing fine.

My problem with the Wakefield study is this:

1. In his study that caused all the furore, he had examined 12 children and 8 of them displayed symptoms that he attested was due to the MMR jab. How can a scientific study with a sample size of 12 be viewed as robust against evidence from the 800 million plus mmr jabs that have been given worldwide?
2. He neglected to tell his co-authors that he had been paid by the Legal Aid Board to investigate a link between MMR and autism and that 4 of the 8 children were being represented by legal aid. If a link was proved, they would be able to sue.
3. Ten of his coauthors retracted their support when they found this out.

As a scientist myself, just on the above, I have to question his motives, his professionalism and his credibility. If you are going to do any scientific study, it has to be emperically robust, open and honest,objective and must be able to withstand scrutiny by your peers. IMHO, Wakefield's study fails on all accounts.

They've done it with the baby jabs as well uwila. I would love for ds2 and ds3 to have a single tetanus jab but there isn't one for the under 10's. It's 5 in one or nothing. So nothing then.

It does concern me though.

They've done it with the baby jabs as well uwila. I would love for ds2 and ds3 to have a single tetanus jab but there isn't one for the under 10's. It's 5 in one or nothing. So nothing then.

It does concern me though.

when was the last measles epidemic..there was single measles vaccination for years before mmr..it was purely bureaucracy to design the mmr vaccine and a flawed design at that

Speedymamma you should read Richard Lathe's book Autism Brain and Environment. its an up to date discussion of the interations between genes and the environment and their respective roles in triggering autism.

Yes, if there is indeed a link between the vaccine and the illness then it will turn out to be a very false economy indeed. But presumably since most of the costs will fall under different governments and different budgets (or be borne by you personally), this won't have been terribly important to whoever was balancing the healthcare budget that year .

"As this thread testifies, obtaining a totally objective opinion on the MMR debate is more or else impossible. My brother who is in his 40s (no mmr) and my 10yo nephew (had mmr jab)have autism. Why? Probably genetic. In fact, my mother knew my nephew was afflicted when he was 6mo. My twin 2yo sons had the MMR jab when they were 13mo and they are developing fine."

Estimates are that 7% of cases of autism are triggered by MMR (in combination with genetic factors). so 93% of cases aren't. Not really all that surprising to find that there are autistic children who have developed autism independently of the MMR.

Study published last year showed that parents were reliable witnesses at recognising regression.

Oh oh, and I still want to know how those nurse at Central Middlesex caught Measels... what was it... six months ago? If they had the jab, does this mean it wears off in adulthood?

I just spoke to a year who has been so scared of the mmr she refused to get her child vaccinated she has now got meales I'm now worried as I have a 7 month old and I've never had meales that we might get infected just because she read the wrong facts. The media should never report on any studies until all the facts are in, all it is does is scare people as every mother wants to do their best for their child and everyday their's new research saying saying one thing about something to do with how we should raise our children and the next day there are studies that prove the opposite.

personally I don't blame Mr Wakefield we would all be outraged if he didn't publish his findings, I blame the media for how they report on his findings.

Thanks JimJams. I will read it. Just like to add that my brother leads a very full life despite his problems and he really puts a lot of so called normal people to shame with what he has achieved. He has never been unemployed (working since he was 16yo), he is very good at making wood carvings, has a brown belt in Kung Fu, can remember every film he has watched, cooks very tasty roast beef and chicken and has women chasing after him. He lives life to the full and we are so proud of him.

Your brother sounds like he is doing really well. Unfortunately DS1 will require 24 hour care for the rest of his life, I don't doubt that for a moment (although its taken me a long time to accept that). That's another problem with autism its such a vast spectrum (and I'm not downplaying the problems at the other end of spectrum from my son, I know from observing friends how significant they can be) and almost certainly has numerous different causes that studies observing groups of autistic children have to be certian they're looking at the same thing. Andy Wakefield has identified a particular group (severe observable bowel changes and an apparent rapid descent into autism following MMR).

Seems an appropraite place to show the flim again, but they've moved it so you have to scroll down to "our community" then click on "autism every day" - the first film in the list at 13 mins long. Not really to do with the MMR but it shows how autism is for many many families. DS1 is like a less hyper cross between Danson and the flicky boy with the tye die shirt (he doesn't really flick but has different equally strange movements).

\link{http://www.autismspeaks.org/video/index.php\autism every day}

Sam's sort of middling to you two, he may 'only' have AS but with the way he displays aggression etc- there'd have to be some serious progression for him to cope alone, or hold down a job- its not something we discuss much as we don't know how he will progress, but we do know it may well become an issue at some point.

The Head has also made a comment that she doesn't know if he'll cope at Junior school so he might yet end up in special ed- . I've no idea why a kid so bright (and he really is) can't cope at the school, unless its the other kids, but somehow he can't.

My biggest hope is that at 10 I was in special ed for some things and now I getiing A's at undergrad level. The jey for me was focussing on my talents- something Sam cannot do yet. His verbal skills are amazing, he is assessed 4 years ahead of his age group, and if he masters writing down what he says then he has a career ready made. We'll just have to see, most As kids seem to be able to function more effectively long term so who knows? Paed did mention HFA but I don't know.

I guess that's the thing with the austistic spectrum- wherever you are on it, there are so many other factors that can influence things, for Sam its a temper and some SN learning problems- which may as well be as a result of birth problems / IUG as his AS. In fact his aggression is always put down to AS, but my Psychology Lectuer showed me research that IUGR kids are more likely to suffer psychological problems than premmies.

I'm waffling . Stop me.

peachyClair- there's no only about it - the NAS found that across the entire spectrum something hideous like only 1% of can live independently. Someone doing RDI will know the figures- itsa a big point of Gusteins.

Just watched that film again and actually ds1 is incredibly like Danson (is that the name?). A lot of his mannerisms are the same, and his noises. Danson's just very slightly younger so so ds1 stands out slightly more.

Don't be sad about special educaiton. DS1 moving to special school has improved our life by about 50 million percent.

My nephew will require care for the rest of his life so yes, I do appreciate the full spectrum of the condition. What I find sad about his situation is that my DB's in- laws are really ashamed of him and when he is visiting his grandmother, she makes out to visitors that she has no idea what is wrong with him and why he behaves as he does. My DM has told my DB not take him there but his wife is insistent that he will not be hidden away just to spare their blushes. Some people are so ignorant

I will watch the film at home (currently at work)

I don't think Wakefield conducting this research at the same time as being an expert witness is a conflict of interest. Expert witnesses are supposed to be objective and just report the facts in the context of their expert knowledge. Would probably have been a good thing to mention it just to avoid the accusation (and he did, soon after initial publication) but I don't think the two things conflict at all.

Whether or not he is right that MMR is a problem for some children, I don't think, based on the publically-available facts, that he has done anything unethical.

What is unethical is the fact that other researchers have been scared off following up his work by the campaign against Wakefield. That is hugely damaging.

The Department of Health has very skilled, very clever people who know how to run campaigns discrediting research. I know some of them. They aren't bad people, but they are very good at their job. Which is perceived to be defending government policy.

Re special school. Ever since nephew started at his special school 2 years ago, he has really progressed well and his teachers think that he maybe able to learn to read and write (he is 10yo). He was not progressing at all in main stream school and we are so happy that he is at this new school now.

My DB went to special school from the age of 5yo and it was the best thing for him. He learnt to read and write (reading age of 7 or 8yo I think)and it provided him with the confidence to try different things, even if he did not succeed at first.

Edam, taking the conflict of interests out of the equation, imo, I still think that a sample size of 12 children is statitically too small to be able to infer any hyopthesis. That is my main reservation about his initial work.

In fact thinking about it, the conflict of interest is an important point because in order for his work to be statistically viable, his sample of children should have been selected randomly and that was not the case.

Speedy, observational clinical research ie reporting the results of interesting observations on a group of patients - is a valid form of research. Nothing wrong with that. You'd never get to the randomised controlled trial if you didn't start there. You just have to make sure that you report the results in a proportionate manner and don't overstate your case.

I kept off this thread earlier but have to put my 2pennth in.

Singles should be available to everyone, it is false ecomony not to - a lot of parents would go with the combination but some wouldn't. At least the government would get their result - all children protected.

Why do the government feel that they have the right to dictate how my son is protected against illness - it's my choice he's my son and if something happened and he was one of the minority that do suffer as a result of vacination - it will be ME looking after him 24hours a day for the rest of our lives - so of course they don't have to consider it. The establishment do acknowledge that people - adults and children are damaged by vacination but it is an 'acceptable casulty rate' to protect the majority - can't say how bl**dy it makes me.

And now they are discussing school wide dosing of children with Omega 3 and 6!

There are actually figures that show that individual vaccines are more effective and have a longer term protection than combination vaccination with a more sucessful uptake of the vaccine - but as with all figures only those that support the particular cause are aired :)

Part of me thinks bring the special school on- especially as we have an autistic unit 3 miles away. But because we don't yet have a formal DX for Sam (and I would bet a lot that we never will, much as we are certain) there are a lot of things I have yet to face up to. I can type My son has As a hundred times a day- doesn't mean I accept it, just that I know it, iyswim.

Sam is like many of those kids on the film sometimes. He reserves his best for when we are at home alone, though he did give the social worker a fab display, meaning he is on their disability index albeit no dx. I noticed some of the kids doing things- like hugging, eye contact- that we have been told by lots of professionals mean he can't be As. We also get crud like he does imaginative games.... by which he means he has separated his class into two tams- his,a nd people he can randomly attack. They could have meant his only other playtime activity of ocurse, piggy, where he runs about shouting piggy and scratching people.

He also, according to the professionals, has a good friend. This friend won't come near the house any more since Sam had a meltdown and flipped himself around the house whilst barking at him. `He was also seen crying last week that Sam prefers to play alone than with him. Friend's Mum is convinced that Sam will be cured with time, but she did say she'd complain about playing alone as it is rude. I can't put on a public forum what I could have done at that moment. She's supposed to be a friend of mine and knows. Other Mums have told their kids to tell Sam he cannot play with them because he is wrong in the head. These are nice middle class mam's who just don't want to know.

We went to a barbecue with a paddling pool at the weekend, decided to go even though Sam had a few bad d ays, as this friend had two ASD kids, and one of the cousins was AS. They both (the Mums) spent the time saying they didn't believe Sam had any isues because he was so lovely; when we got home he screeched, spat (a big problem lately), attacked ds2 again, threw himself about- even Dh couldn't restrain him. The next day we got up to find Sam had wee'd over the kitchen floor (he is 65 and completely trained) and not told anyone; he and ds2 were paddling in it. (DS2 not realising)

Long term, our preferred hope is to get a house we can convert with a fl;at for him. Right now though we're in rented, and Sam trashed the last house, losing us our deposit. because no DX we have no money or help at all (not that there's much with a dx) and though I am lucky to have a friend take hom once a week for a few hours after she realised I was at breaking about a month ago (she has 2 older ASD kids herself), we are 50 miles from family.... none of whom have visited for over a year. MIL did come but as she loathes Sam (the freak) that's a waste. My own problems (I would guarantee myself a dx of As if I could see the point I reckon, although I have gained a lot more living skills lately- I have friends now, and am quite outgoing, which is a big cjhange) mean that it's hard for me to go to groups- I have no spacial awareness for example, and can't drive 4 miles without getting lost, or find my car in car parks. Plus I am usually too tired anyway, as Sam sleep very badly.

Which sounds awful, but its not: as a rule I am happy and Sam can be adorable on a routine fixed, good day. Ds2 and Ds3 are fab, and help a lot, as does DH. And Uni helps.... I'm very bookish/ academic by nature anyhow.

sorry- that took so long to type the convo had moved way on - just ignore and carry on as before....

MeanMyboy- so true- I vaccinated ds1 doing my public duty blah blah- he is damaged partly as a result (taking about baby jabs not mmr) of that- and it is me looking after him. It is me that has attempted to pick up the pieces with absolute zero help. The film really shows the extent to which it is mothers who mop up.

Speedymama- it was an obervational study. I don't think you would get ethical clearance for a RCT of MMR vs no MMR (which wasn't what the study was about anyway- he was reporting novel bowel disease in autistic children). Such a study would be highly unlikley to find anything if the affected group is a subgroupof only 7% of the autistic population.

In the case of the studies investigating vaccine strain measles virus in the cerebro-spinal fluid- the controls were random- they were kids who had to have a lumbar puncture for other reasons. The other group was autistic children with bowel disease, which is about as good as you can get in this sort of study.

PC- you seem to have come across a succession of professionals who know nothing about autism. We did as well though. Pre-dx we were told that ds1 couldn't possibly be autistic because he was doing "x, y andx" (interacting basically and being affectionate and making eye contact). After diagnosis we were told that we were imagining it if we thought ds1 was interating, being affectionate and making eye contact as he couldn;t possibly be because he was autistic

You don't sound as if you are having much luck with friends. Any support groups near you. I do think it really helps if you have a friend with a child at approx the same place on the spectrum because although we all share general issues (the tuts, the stares, the NT parents treating your child like some sort of freaky piece of dirt, the difficulty with doing the simplest thing) there are also differences and someone with a child at the same place has really similar problems so you can offload because they get it completely iyswim.