Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

And men like TY always try to get women to do them for them. If they try to use an argument that women are built for cleaning and childcare but not earning money and men of course hate dull jobs that is pretty sexist and needs to be stamped out. Loads of women find these kinds of tasks terribly dull too.

I am trying to decipher that lot.
From what I can make out,you have ruled out no 4. not bright women doing the housework too.

So to summaraise.
TY shouldnt use any women, of whatever their ability, including his wife, to do it.
Which leaves the men.
hmm

those jobs may be dull but they are pretty damn vital to everyone and society. I've pointed out this to my kids numerous times. So its best if everyone mucks in and gets them done together.

Xenia is absolutely right to say that most people find housework boring, and that those who don't are by and large the exception to the rule. She is also right to say that paid work is good for your mental health. However, it is worth repeating that the interest/dullness of a job is both relatively subjective and is also independent of the pay. Most people would find the professional life of a tax lawyer to be unutterably dull (and morally repugnant, to boot), and would not do the job even if they had the qualifications despite the large rewards on offer.

Re child-rearing: there's quite a lot of evidence to show that this is really quite difficult to do well - it is deceptively difficult. As a society, we are making a mistake in having it be such a a low-status, low-paid career. Other countries value it more, pay more for it, and reap the rewards in children who learn more and are happier and grow up to be better adjusted adults.

I really object to the idea that women are naturally more suited to some of the more drudgey elements of childcare. James Delingpole has argued this too - that women are somehow better at it because they enjoy wiping up sick and sweeping the floor for the thousandth time whereas it's too trivial for men's brains so they can't do it as well as women.

I will definitely stand up and be counted with the OP on that score. It's misogynist BS and it's definitely prevalent in our culture.

Parenting does involve quite a bit of manual labour and drudgery. Let's not make that bit women's work. It's parents' work.

It is parents' work, agreed.
But men, if pushed too far, run for the hills. And often leave the kids behind too.
Women dont, or not very often.

Women are happier working. Studies show mental health is worse for housewives, drink and drug addiction is worse too. It is not a moral judgment. It's a fact

My health is fine. I went running when at home. I have never taken illegal drugs. I think that you will find it is young, high flying professionals who think snorting coke is 'fun'. (I think it pathetic)

Also most people find a lot of housework and childcare of under 5s dull which is why most bright men and women want to work too or pursue other interests and why every culture in history from the ancient Romans using slaves to the Victorian women with their domestic servants delegates teh dross dull work and why cleaning jobs are some of the lowest paid in society as it is dull and anyone can do it. These are facts not my opinion. Now of course there will be some husbands and wives who like cleaning and minding 3 children under 5. There are always exceptions.

Why do you need to do more housework if at home than working? I was too busy doing other things. I wasn't 'minding' children -no wonder it is boring if that is what you do.

Anyway the point is too many women give up careers and regret it
I got back when ready and those years at home gave me more than money could possibly buy.

and too many men end up foisting too much on their women in sexist marriages and the more we can get that message out the better so younger women don't give up full time work and live off men.

I didn't have a man-no one was foisting anything. I wasn't in a marriage.

The message to younger women is have choice.

Most people would find the professional life of a tax lawyer to be unutterably dull (and morally repugnant, to boot), and would not do the job even if they had the qualifications despite the large rewards on offer

Exactly-dull to many.Whatever the money I could earn I wouldn't want to do it. Childcare is way more interesting to me than anything that involves working in an office.

Why not accept that everyone is different? You were the one that gave the quote last week- Xenia- 'different but equal' and yet you seem to be ignoring it. I can only think that you didn't fully read the article you were quoting.

Yes, that is my only point and I think most mumsnetters agree - indeed some who are housewives do very little of the housewife role and just the playing with children bit.

This myth that babies need a mother there only and that women are suited to hours of tedious jobs suits men extremely well and needs to be scotched.

Someone will now tell me Ms T Y has returned to work and is an equity partner at Dechert with Miriam Gonzalez (Mrs Clegg) on their average profits per partner of £1m a year or whatever it is and I shall eat my words. Meanwhile Mr TY has taken sole charge of the children as his writing earnings have dropped and he has his feather duster out every day in his pinny ready for when Ms TY gets home to check the children are fed and watered and he's tackled that dusting in the living room.

You have a very strange view of life Xenia.

So, men are not doing the housework and boring kids stuff, and women are not either.

Hmmm...what was it now..oh yes, fuck off xenia.

I Dont think Xenia is real.
At least that's what I tell myself when I read her posts :(

What I struggle with is the dismissal of everything that isn't "fun" about parenting. Housework I can leave in an instant but the refereeing, the negotiations, the support of homework - whilst superficially tedious - is actually teaching our kids something - and contributing to the adults they will become.

IF you turn your back on those parenting responsibilities because they are dull or onerous or tedious, you shirk that associated responsibility. If your kids are able to self-motivate, stick to a task, work with others - it usually because that is what they have seen and had modeled for them at home.

And that is why we (as a team) chose to have a parent based at home.

As far as the gender discussion goes, it could have been either of us. At some point, it is likely that who it is will change. But dismissing the "boring" bits and doing everything you can to evade them, is childish - irrespective of your gender. If you chose to have kids, get on with the job of bringing them up.

No wonder you get the mad report in the paper the other day. Apparently the very rich now need their toddlers to have elocution lessons so that they can talk 'properly' -this is because they are spending their days with foreign staff who have English as a second language.

Children need time-not quality time-they need time. It is a mad world if we are supposed to use the Romans or rich Victorians as role models. I expect they had all sorts of dubious practices-like 'spare the rod...........' etc

I wouldn't want the Cleggs as role models either-it isn't the life style that I want.

I also don't think that I can be that unusual. I have been married twice and to my 'best friend' among other things. We talked it over, we worked our what sort of life we wanted, as a couple and a family. It isn't a competition-we are a unit. How we choose to do things is up to us.

DuchessofAvon I completely agree with you but the theme of this and James Delingpole's argument is that women enjoy the boring stuff more than men and are therefore better at it. I will not stand for that. Being a woman (and perhaps being less likely to run away as per dogsandcats slightly depressing post!) does not make drudgery more my work than my DH.

It's definitely a theme I pick up on at work too. One younger member of staff has recently become a father for the first time and is coming out with a lot of "oh women find the nights easier than men because they are bred for it" type of rubbish and I absolutely make it my business to correct him. It's also supposed to be flattering: "oh women are so much more patient than us daft men so that's why we stand back and let them do the stuff we haven't got the patience for". It honestly infuriates me.

None of us have the patience to be parents really. It's a very tough job. If you don't want to do it you shouldn't do it. Only men like TY give themselves the option to do the high value add stuff only (parents' evening, teaching how to ride a bike) and leave the night time vomit clear up and the endless floor-sweeping to their wives who were bred for it.

Women are a lot to blame. There is a thread at the moment where some won't have a male babysitter. How many would have a male nanny-for a girl baby? You won't get equality until men can have equal opportunities in childcare -not many would even attempt it when they are viewed with suspicion if they choose it as a career.

drjohnsonscat, are you in a relationship?

There are relatively few very highly paid jobs for anyone, male or female, and there are economists arguing that the labour market is "hollowing out", with a very few highly paid jobs and many more low-paid ones, with less people/ spread of wages in the middle.

You can see this in the conservative politician's rhetoric that anyone earning over the UK median salary is lucky: the median salary is pretty low, relative to the cost of living.

The few highly-paid jobs, or jobs that are a stepping stone towards them, often require very long hours, travel, relocation and so on. Two people doing long-hours jobs (well paid or not) without a lot of family support means children being in childcare for more than full-time, and probably little time for anything other than work. Most people don't want that for themselves/their DC.

Agree though that there is a lot of sexism and excuses from men about why women should do the drudge work. And that TY is annoying!

Don't the gonzalez-cleggs have nannies (plural) AND a live-in family member helping out?

drjohnsonscat I totally agree with you in return. Cleaning up vomit isn't pleasant no matter what your gender. I had to struggle with DH over this in the early days. We had a domestically very equitable relationship pre- kids - and once the babies arrived I ricocheted back to the 1950's so fast, I had whiplash. He very soon learnt that the only thing he couldn't do for the baby was breast-feed it.

However, the level of compliments showered on him for changing a nappy or walking a crying baby drove me insane.

The mythology of the uber-competant Mum and the uber-incompetant Dad does no-one any favours.

What had perturbed me about the thread was the general dismissal of ALL parenting tasks other than "fun"ones. I was trying to separate the hoursekeeping tasks (cooking, cleaning etc..) from the actual parenting and wondering why people would want to outsource those as well. It seems to me that this is the very nature of being a grown-up, a parent - and seeking to evade it smacks of a delayed development, somehow wishing to only be "fun".

I don't want someone in my house doing them. I am a very private person.
I had a cleaner once-when I was a SAHM and didn't have time, but I didn't like it. (once back at work it was far more routine and less time for other things so housework was much easier to fit in)

You put it v well DoA. I don't actually agree with the concept of quality time. Children don't care about that. It's actually just about time and putting in the hours. I think someone already said that upthread but I agree with that.

I also tend to think that all parenting Involves some sacrifice. You can't have it all and I have had to give up some elements of my career as a result. But I expect all parents to do that - not just women. I say that as someone who works FT and has a fairly high - powered job ( naff phrase but I can't think how else to describe it).

I do actually agree with a lot of what Xenia says on this topic (the nonsense of "working mother guilt", the desire for women not to subsume themselves in family life and find themselves surplus to requirements in later life as is currently happening to a lot of my friends as divorce strikes). I don't agree with her that any other way of being a mother is a waste of time but I'm glad to see someone taking a robust attitude to some of the myth of motherhood stuff.

xenia, stop wasting your life being bitter
do what you want to do in life and enjoy it.

Xenia has never struck me as bitter