Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

Well put GetOrf.

Actually I find Xenia's pov interesting (though I don't agree with her politics). She might come across as blunt but if she inspires even one of us to improve our lot then that is no bad thing. She has certainly given me pause for thought over the time I've been on here, and I am currently at a career crossroads. I've several choices in front of me and I don't think
I'd have considered the most challenging one (and the one to which I am leaning) if I hadn't read what Xenia has said. And the bits which are a little blunt? Water off a duck's back, words on a screen... That goes for everyone else on here. We can pick and choose what to listen to on here.

Good, PR, that is all I seek to do - challenge sexism and make women realise they can pick interesting lucrative careers rather than sacrifice everything for a man.

Any suggestion of sneering is just misinterpretation of what I have said. Women often end up in a ghetto of low pay because of their own low expectations and I just want them to realise you can have a great life, easier than that of house wife or low paid worker, if you choose different kinds of careers, to know that high paid women with large families can have very lovely lives.

Can't resist a TY thread though I see pickledginger nailed it on the first page with her "monumental fuckwit" comment.

That sounds exciting PetiteR

It is exciting. I think. I hope. Just got to work out how to do it now :)

I do get fed up with WOHM women (and I am a WOHM myself) who denigrate staying home with small children as demeaning, boring shit that no one could possibly enjoy. That may be how you feel, but I don't see why that is automatically extrapolated to how all women/parents feel.

I can't remember how many times I have said it but I don't find looking after small children boring, I find it very enjoyable-we are all different and being a solicitor would be boring to me.

It is just as well that we all find different things interesting or the country wouldn't operate.

Could it just be accepted that I chose to stay at home? I chose to stay at home when I was a widow, so I wasn't being subservient to a man. I am very thankful that my DH didn't want to be the one to do the bulk of the childcare.
Lots of women want to work full time, lots want part time and lots want to not work at all. All are perfectly valid options.

Oh, it's not a thread about TY. Oh well.

Fwiw, I agree with the poster upthread who said fewer people would question the time Xenia spends with her children or how many she had if she was a man.

Though he-Xenia would still be firmly questioned about some of his other positions

I can't see why people don't mind their own business -there is no need to question anyone.

was a solicitor, so potentially could have earned one million per year . How many solicitors are earning 1m?

Xenia post 18.42pm
"..rather than sacrifice everything for a man".

Do you mean that doing the boring bits of motherhood is helping a man out?
So, by encouraging women to go out to work then
a. the man is inconvenienced and work handicapped because he has to devote more of his time to his children, and
b.by women going out to work, they are directly challenging mens' jobs?

It all depends on your definition of 'a lovely life'. Again we are all different- I have no doubt Xenia would hate mine and it is quite clear to me, from reading her posts, that her life would make me depressed and urgently looking for an escape route. There is nothing wrong with either- we are just lucky to have what we want- the mistake is to think that we have a desirable model and everyone would want it, or ought to want it.

Are you kidding? If a man came on here and implied women were inadequate human beings for being SAHMs and without careers he'd be charbroiled out of town. I dare any man to do it, just go for it. I'll stock up on popcorn now.

I don't mind what choices people like Xenia & Cherie Blair have made in how to be women & mothers & people.
I just wish they wouldn't have so much opinion about MY choices.
That's why Xenia attracts personal attacks in return.

I have never said a non working parents is an inadequate human being.
I have said women are happier and do better and better helop other women if they keep working and leave dull houseparent jobs and low grade jobs to men as much as they can.

I have not added up the number of equity partners at bigger law firms or accountancy firms for that matter but they are more than the number of nurses or teachers on over £1m.

Even by stating (your opinion) that women are "happier and do better if they keep working" rather than do "dull houseparent jobs" you're making a moral judgement. Do you not see that?

Shall I find some of your other priceless quotes?

But the irony is your man is no longer around the house to do any chores.
Most of us still have men around to do some of them.

A man can only be pushed so far imo, before he runs out on his family, and leaves her to do all of it in some cases.

A woman is apt to stay on with the children. I sometimes wonder why this is.

exoticfruits talks a lot of sense.

I don't really write about my domestic situation and most of my children are grown up.

Women are happier working. Studies show mental health is worse for housewives, drink and drug addiction is worse too. It is not a moral judgment. It's a fact.

Also most people find a lot of housework and childcare of under 5s dull which is why most bright men and women want to work too or pursue other interests and why every culture in history from the ancient Romans using slaves to the Victorian women with their domestic servants delegates teh dross dull work and why cleaning jobs are some of the lowest paid in society as it is dull and anyone can do it. These are facts not my opinion. Now of course there will be some husbands and wives who like cleaning and minding 3 children under 5. There are always exceptions.

Anyway the point is too many women give up careers and regret it and too many men end up foisting too much on their women in sexist marriages and the more we can get that message out the better so younger women don't give up full time work and live off men.

But who gets to do the housework?

1.bright women. You have ruled them out

1. Bright men?
2. Not bright men?
3. Not bright women?

Who should get the MH issues?

You use the word "delegate".
So preumably your answer is no 3. or no.4

hmmm, drug addiction. Anecdotal I know but I thought it was bankers and lawyers snorting cocaine through banknotes, not housewives

i find the assumption the housework only gets done if there is a dedicated person (sahp, or a cleaner) kind of odd

my partner WOH full time, i do 4 days a week, but do not do any housework on my day off beyond normal maintanance (cooking food for myself so i can eat, washing the dishes i dirty)

our house is clean and organised- we share the upkeep, as do the kids

living in a house the size of a shoebox probably helps though

Ah. I think the penny has just dropped for me.
All these years you are specifically talking to bright women only.

(Not read the whole threat, just having a 5 min break while LO are sleeping)

My career is child minding... I have a degree a post grad and a diploma ( all business qualifications, not child minding ones)

I prefer managing children, to grown up (men usually) who invariable act like children. At least when you advise a two year old not to do something.... they take your advice!

correct child minding is on par with teaching primary school children these days... Definitely not the easy option.... but only if they are doing it correctly.

Most people don't find these dull jobs interesting. They always get delegates either by a husband who can find a muggins mother housewife who cannot earn much elsewhere so her best meal ticket is a man and in return she does his dirty work. Or you pay someone else to do it.

These jobs are low paid for a reason.