Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

Exotic

I didn't plan any of ours. In fact I loved nieces and nephews but didn't want any of my own. We ended up with 3 and there is a 13 and and 9 year gap between ds1, ds2 and dd.
Even though none were planned I knew from ds1 birth I would be a sahm, weird eh?

40% even in the UK.

17-31% of live births in London result from unplanned pregnancies.

I certainly wasn't going to settle for the wrong person in order to fit in my DCs young! As it turned out we were both 22 when we met, but far too busy enjoying life and building up our careers to settle down. We are all different.

agree have the big conversation prior to getting serious.be clear about expectations
we certainly talked,kids,career,work and candid about what we wanted
I couldn't have settled with man who wouldn't support me or my career

We didn't talk about any of that stuff it wasn't important. We were just really in love and knew that this was enough. Marriage has ups and downs and you both need to be singing from the same hymn sheet obviously for it to work. But I don't think this needs to be discussed early in a relationship. Neither dh nor I are the same people we were when we got married.
We are celebrating 21 years in August, but been partners for 25 years soon.

on the contrary I think the big conversation needs to happen sometime
we all have deal breakers,and preferences these need to be acknowledged
the pragmatic aspects of being a couple,eg finances,work.i discussed didn't want to marry, kids,career

Can I ask a question, Xenia. You dont have to answer. You say that you made sure you married at 21. How did that happen. Just naturally?
Also, agree with scottishmummy. I think big conversations need to happen quite early on.

Scottish

We both only had one deal breaker we each had to promise to leave if we stopped loving the other. Everything else you can talk about, compromise etc. I suppose it depends on who you marry, we knew immediately we were right for each other and are soul mates.

I knew I'd met the one but that doesn't mean don't have the big conversation
in fact meeting significant partner is exactly why one should have the conversation
we all bring preferences,expectation to relationship this needs duscussed

Scottish.

We are all different. I didn't have expectancies, preferences etc. Neither did dh. We just did what was right at the time and supported one another. I think all the stuff about supporting each others decisions was a given really.

Totally agree again.
Lots of things to discuss before even getting engaged imo.
Now that people tend to move in together first, I would have thought that having big conversations before miving in together is important. Before more time is wasted.
I must say that I have been a little shocked this week by the number of threads where even women as young as 35 were having trouble conceiving. I thought that so long as a woman didnt want many childrnen, that she would still be fertile enough up to 40ish.
I think the average age to have a first child is now 29? If so, it is starting to cut it fine[in an ideal world of course] to wait much longer if you would like several. But I am beginning to suspect, with the financial situation as it is, that the birth rate will drop, as I cant see as many people being able to say have even 4 children.

you brought the expectation that if you stopped being in love you'd leave
so yes,you had deal breakers, as we all do
no one neutrally goes into a significant relationship.we all have expectations

agree with sm that is.

How do you decide and engineer to marry young I think I was asked. I always remember wanted a very well paid career so I was engineering that young too - best A levels in the school etc. I suppose graduating a virgin at 20 was not quite taking the marriage thing further on as a student....

I read a lot. I read about childbirth, breastfeeding, my mother's NCT leaflets etc from about age 13 or 14. I read a lot of feminist books from a bout age 14 and that obviously helps you ensure you don't marry sexist men and set up relationships only with men who are career supportive. How else do you find a husband? I suppose most of us could write a book on that but obvious.y you fall in love and before that you see people and if you're reasonably attractive I imagine if you're 21 it surely is one of the easiest ages to find a husband. Roll on 20 years together, 5 children - success. I've been very lucky indeed but have made some of that luck.

Scottish

Yes, I said that was the only deal breaker. There was no official big talk about anything. It just cropped up in conversation one night. There were no other issues important to us. I knew he would support me in whatever I wanted to do and likewise, there was no discussion required. But as I said we're all different.

Xenia.
I think the saying goes "Good luck comes from good management"

I think my only concern about a girl marrying at 21, and more so a boy, is if they were emotionally mature enough. And not likely to still be emotionally maturing and changing.

when I read the he doesn't want to marry threads on mn
I'm eternally suprised folk don't discuss it.if its significant to you talk about it
significant things need to be discussed,good relationships need communication

I think there are a lot of women who cling to a man, even if deep down they know he might not be right for them, because they would rather do that than be lonely.
I think there are a lot of lonely women, and men too for that matter.

DogsandCats.

Its ironic isn't it, that by not wanting to be lonely, they end up lonely. I think they realise how lonely you can be whilst married to the wrong person, unfortunately its too late then.

Scottish

I can't argue with that, we sort of drifted into marriage and joked about it for a couple of years before we set a date. If it was so important to either of us we would have discussed it seriously.

Xenia - really? I think it's far from "reasonably easy" to be married so soon after university. Nothing to do with attractiveness just more the current norms. Do you think your DCs will get married in their early 20s?

I was talking to a friend yesterday and we were saying that 'in our day' it was the norm to get married after university, in your early 20s but they simply can't afford it now.

Well we do have a family wedding this year actually, not quite early 20s.
For bright girls at university it is not that hard to marry young. Lots of people settle down with someone from university because they fall in love and it is perhaps your first chance and may be only chance to be with such a concentration of suitable clever men all at once in one place. Secondly men in their 30s often want pretty graduate women who are 10 years older so I imagine you can also choose from them too. It tends to be 30s when sometimes that reverses - women happy to marry anyone as they have only a few years of fertility left and not particularly attractive men who were spurned in their 20s suddenly enjoying a huge choice of women.

Marriage does not hav to cost anything. The fees most churches charge are absolutely tiny. It is some people expectations and consumerism which means they say they cannot afford a marriage. In fact if you find a partner male or female who will only marry if there is money for expensive dresses and things like that then probably you can cross them off your list - use it as an acid test to determine if they are nasty materialistic type of people. It may also mean they are boring because they want to conform to new societal norms.

Why the hurry to marry, though? Marriage inevitably means lots of constraints upon your movements and, particularly, your career. Women in particular need to enjoy their 20s and early 30s to the full and travel the world for work and leisure.

Marriage only constrains career if you marry a sexist man and clever women avoid those types. You can enjoy your 20s through breastfeeding and cuddling toddlers at weekends rather than in wine bars. Enjoyment is not necessarily personal freedom. It can be giving to children and others and also working.

Also as fertility plummets at 35 if you want career and children then you are taking ab it of a risk if you have nearly 20 years of freedom and travelling as you may end up enable to have time for 4 or 5 children.

It's got nothing whatsoever to do with sexism. If you want to take up opportunities in other countries, it is MUCH harder to do so if you are already hitched. Very hard to find two career-path positions in New York or Seoul simultaneously.